Counter-Terrorism In The UK: The Way Forward

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Bits

War Hero
#1
Rather than the current bunfight over what should have and shouldn't have been done, let's concentrate on the way forward.

First let's try and agree on what we think the mission and the endstate should be, and then lets put our collective experience and sensibilities together to come up with a plan.

I'm sick of back-stabbing and name-calling, and for those whose opinions I've disgreed with and been rude to I'm sorry. Most of us are, to a degree, angry for one reason or another on what has been going on, and may be disturbed by the apparent responses by our security services. Instead of arguing over what has happened, and what it means, lets try and argue a way forward. If the gossip is true that the media frequent this site, we may even get lucky and be able to inform the media opinion.

So, first off, we need, (a) a mission, (b) an endstate, and then (c) a plan.
 
#2
Mission:
To protect the United Kingdom, and her allies, from the threat of terrorist activities.

Endstate:
I don't think there is one for terrorism surely.

Plan:
* Effective intelligence and robust pre-emptive strikes on known and suspected terrorists, including the punishing of countries that actively support terrorism, including the right to take military action against such countries.
* Effective and robust implementation of immigration and border controls, including but not limited to, deportation of ‘unwelcome’ persons.
* Revokation of citizenship and subsequent deportation, if not imprisoned, of naturalised British Citizens found to be contributing to terrorism.
* Permanent detention of terrorist suspects, by Court Order, whilst undergoing active investigation.
* Implementation of Military forces to support the civil Police when appropriate.
* Limited suspension of Civil Rights in extreme cases, including but not limited to curfews, area confinements and suspension of the right to gather in public places.


That sort of thing?
 
#3
Mission: To protect the United Kingdom from terrorism without unreasonable disturbance to social affairs.

We could turn the UK into an Orwellian state but I doubt we wish to do that, as it would hand victory to the terrorist. There are reasonable and temporary measures that would be appropriate on occation.

Endstate: Containment of the terrorist threat.

There will always be a potential threat.

Plan:

1. Control of entry to the UK. Details (such as resident address, point of origin) of all entrants to be properly logged.

2. Adequate resourcing of the security and intelligence services to meet the threat.

3. Twin approach to the origins of terrorism.

a. Conflict resolution. The political process to be used to promote stability in world affairs and to establish the United Kingdom as an independent and impartial party in world affairs, interested in working collaboratively with other nations. Also, the development of alternate measures than military force ie. by paying subsidies to Afghan warlords in the 19th century manner in order to gain their co-operation in foreign policy objectives such as the curtailment of the drugs trade and the marginalisation of Al Qaeda.

b. Threat neutralisation. Limited, minimal and collaborative use of military force to neutralise key targets. An example would be co-operation with Pakistan in removing the threat from AQ figureheads located in the border areas of the 'stans.

4. Establishment of a Royal Commission to investigate domestic political reforms that may promote the political process within the UK. For example, the removal of prime ministerial prerogative powers and the replacement of the voting lobby by a secret ballot.
 
#4
I do not wholly disagree with radical short-term measures (long-term detention of suspects during interrogation) but these must be subject to Parliamentary approval and not introduced by ministers on the back of vague legislation or as the result of prerogative powers.
 
#5
As an extra method what about the seizeing of funds or at least the freazing of assets that are, are going to be or believed to be used for terrorist ends.

A much stronger border control is definintly the way forward, as is the provision of ID cards to all, and the right of a Police officer to confirm the id of anyone in the street.

Without sidetracking the thread, I've never seen anything wrong with everyone carrying an ID card, it could double up as a driving licence, passport, NHS card and NI card. Which could cut down on the amount of ID theft that occurs.
 
#6
I think the mission needs a clearer definition.

Personally, I think the way of life, the democratic system etc that we have come to appreciate and "love" is the thing to be protected. Losing that means there is no point in saving peoples lives. The country could easily turn into a lockdown police state - this would seriously hamper the terrorists abilites, however is that wanted?

ID Cards - pointless and nothing to do with the terrorist threat.
 

Bits

War Hero
#7
RustyBayonet said:
* Effective and robust implementation of immigration and border controls, including but not limited to, deportation of ‘unwelcome’ persons.
* Revokation of citizenship and subsequent deportation, if not imprisoned, of naturalised British Citizens found to be contributing to terrorism.
* Permanent detention of terrorist suspects, by Court Order, whilst undergoing active investigation.
Strongly agree with all of these:

In addition, how about reinforcing the right of the British Sovereign Authorities to:

*Reserve the right to refuse entry to the UK by any individual, without warning or statement of reason.

*Reserve the right to deport any persons not naturalised British Citizens to their country of origin who are suspected of involvement or contributing support to terrorists or terrorist activities.
 
#8
In the case of home grown terrorists, ID cards do nothing, we need to develop anti-terrorist IT skills, as the internet is the terrorists best friend at the minute. If we start tracking more the people logging onto homemade bomb sites etc. then this can be followed up by further intel ops. to make arrests, I think this will play a big part. And I'm afraid I'm going to have to say that certain ethnic groups are going to have to be upset, as they are overwhelmingly supplying the terrorists, so we may have to almost single these groups out, with close eyes on mosques that are suspect as to what they preach at friday prayers. As far as I care, if a mosque is recorded as supporting terrorism against GB, that's it, end ex, shut the place down, as it has lost it's right to be a place of worship. To be honest, I think we're pretty much ont he right track at the minute, I honestly can't see much else that can be done.
 
#9
1. Remove the Human Rights Act. I managed to enjoy my "rights" for well over thirty years without the Act. But then, I'm not a terrorist, kiddie-fiddler, chav or lawyer.
2. Set up a Border Guard Force. I believe something like this is already planned.
3. Expand MI5. Set up Field Offices in every major city. Perhaps set up a Section of 5 that has full powers of arrest.
4. Turn Special Branch into a nationwide organisation, seperate from the rest of the police. This idea was put forward a couple of years ago but was dropped due to political opposition.
5. Set up a "third force". Britian is almost unique in having only police and military forces. Most European countries have paramilitary forces that can back up the civil police force. Again, this idea was put forward last year, by HM's Inspectorate of Constabulary.
Message for Bits: I read this AFTER I responded to your post in the New London Bombing's thread. I aggree that we should try and keep things civil. Flame wars are a waste of everyone's time and energy. We may disagree on how to defend our country, but both of us want to be part of the solution rather than the problem.
If you want to bury the hatchet, Bitts, fine by me.
 
#10
spindler said:
ID Cards - pointless and nothing to do with the terrorist threat.
Has been discussed in other threads but,

ID cards would assist Police in stop and search/identification of persons. Another tool in the box for the authorities to use to our advantage.
 
#12
spindler said:
ID Cards - pointless and nothing to do with the terrorist threat.
An effective identity system in this country would save Billions in fraudulent benefit, NHS and credit card transactions.

In addition to helping law enforcement being able to sort some of the wheat from the chaff, some of the money saved from the British fraud mountain could well be spent in funding more Police, Security Services and Health resources; and perhaps some detection equipment for public transport?

We could then also afford to have armed police officers trained to issue a challenge in 150 different languages.
 
#13
Countdokku, I think your point 3 has real merit. A local MI5 office that has real local knowledge that reports to head of slime, London
In a way I view the lack of local, 'beat' bobbies in the same way. Get them back and into the 'hood'.
 
#14
"set up a Section of 5 that has full powers of arrest."


Is there anything stopping serving members of the armed forces or security services being sworn in as special constables, thereby giving them powers of arrest - IIRC a lot of English police shipped up to Jockland for the G8 had to be sworn in by local sherrifs to extend their powers to cover the region.

How about the ability to rescind UK nationality for anyone found guilty of a Treasonous act, thereby allowing us to kick the buggers out.

without doubt the ability to detain any non national claiming asylum in a secure location to ascertain their true identity, status and the validity of the claim prior to allowing free and open entry to the UK

allied with procedural issues of no-one ever being allowed through customs without passport and biometric ID check (I've been amongst a bunch of people waved straight through without any checks)

random stop and search and sniffer dog inspection of anyone using public transportation systems, without pages and pages of paperwork.

random police roadblocks to search vehicles without cause or reason.

Strictly enforced regional number plates (relevant to the first four postcode digits of the vehicles registered address) - ie. hmm, car from Bradford, bit unusual, I'll run this through the computer.

greater legal protection for police and HMF put in the position of making the shot - a presumption of reasonableness unless the action can be proved reckless.
 
#15
Endstate: Containment of the terrorist threat.

There will always be a potential threat.
Surely a complete absence of terrorism should be our aim. A state where those who wish to perpertrate such acts feel that they are;

a) So likely to be caught,

b) So unlikely to achieve their aims,

c) So fearful of the consequences.

That they are unwilling/unable to carry out such acts.

Any other state of affairs means we are yet to reach an endstate.
 
#16
This has been done to death on other threads, however....

subbsonic said:
spindler said:
ID Cards - pointless and nothing to do with the terrorist threat.
An effective identity system in this country would save Billions in fraudulent benefit, NHS and credit card transactions.
What has that got to do with anti-terror?

subbsonic said:
In addition to helping law enforcement being able to sort some of the wheat from the chaff, some of the money saved from the British fraud mountain could well be spent in funding more Police, Security Services and Health resources; and perhaps some detection equipment for public transport?
Isnt it more likely to be used to adminster the system and prosecute innocent people who have forgotten to carry their cards etc?

jakeblues68 said:
ID cards would assist Police in stop and search/identification of persons. Another tool in the box for the authorities to use to our advantage.
How would that have helped prevent either of the bombing incidents? The police were obviously unable to stop and search the guy who was shot on the train etc.

ID cards provide no assistance in this. They help people prove their identity - yes, but we already have systems in place to do this. As soon as you demand compulsory ID cards, innocent people (forgetting to carry them, lost them etc) will be criminalised. If you dont criminalise them then the "enemy" can easily pretend to be an innocent person ("oh sorry officer, my wallet has just been stolen etc."

They are brought out under the guise of various forms of "protection" because they are not the answer.

If the solution to this situation is getting rid of all the rights and freedoms that make our country special, then are we ever going to win? If we turn the UK into a christian led version of Saudi for instance, surely this is a defeat?
 
#17
spindler said:
This has been done to death on other threads, however....

subbsonic said:
spindler said:
ID Cards - pointless and nothing to do with the terrorist threat.
An effective identity system in this country would save Billions in fraudulent benefit, NHS and credit card transactions.
What has that got to do with anti-terror?

subbsonic said:
In addition to helping law enforcement being able to sort some of the wheat from the chaff, some of the money saved from the British fraud mountain could well be spent in funding more Police, Security Services and Health resources; and perhaps some detection equipment for public transport?
Isnt it more likely to be used to adminster the system and prosecute innocent people who have forgotten to carry their cards etc?

jakeblues68 said:
ID cards would assist Police in stop and search/identification of persons. Another tool in the box for the authorities to use to our advantage.
How would that have helped prevent either of the bombing incidents? The police were obviously unable to stop and search the guy who was shot on the train etc.

ID cards provide no assistance in this. They help people prove their identity - yes, but we already have systems in place to do this. As soon as you demand compulsory ID cards, innocent people (forgetting to carry them, lost them etc) will be criminalised. If you dont criminalise them then the "enemy" can easily pretend to be an innocent person ("oh sorry officer, my wallet has just been stolen etc."

They are brought out under the guise of various forms of "protection" because they are not the answer.

If the solution to this situation is getting rid of all the rights and freedoms that make our country special, then are we ever going to win? If we turn the UK into a christian led version of Saudi for instance, surely this is a defeat?
As you said it has been done in other threads, a national database that would be created with the ID card system will assist the authorities in a number of ways, perhaps it could of helped in the ID of persons in the aftermath of the bombings.
A proper system would slim down the illegal immigrant population.

As you said, done before in other threads so I wont go on, no it wont stamp out terrorism but IMHO it will help.
 
#18
Like I've said, some civil libertys are going to suffer, it is that simple, but people need to keep in their minds the images of the 7th of July, and put themselves and their families in the victims place, I am willing to bin a few libertys to protect the people I love from the affects of the 'mother of Satan'.
 
#19
Interesting concept. The Army, as an organisation, is supposed to be willing to die to defend our society and its "way of life" but here we are willing to suspend that way of life to save lives. Where would you draw the line about which liberties can be suspended and which cant?

A fantastic anti-terrorist law would be for all houses to have a Sy Svc camera mounted in each room - this would ensure that no plans could be hatched or bombs built without the authorities knowing about it. This would truly help to protect the people. Would you be happy with it? If you dont have anything to hide, what is wrong with it?

I bet PIRA are kicking themselves. 30 years of killings and explosions (remember when trainstations were evactuated nearly every day in the late 70's early 80's - remember when the bins were removed from all stations etc) they never managed to change one thing about the way British people went about their lives. One strike by these "islamist" scumbags and people are crying out for a regime change in the UK.

On the ID card issue (I know I didnt want to talk about it, but I cant help myself!) - its fine if it is a voluntary method to help ID the bodies. What has it got to do with preventing terrorisim? Sneaking something in under the all encompassing "anti-terror" banner is not the way to do it. ID cards are no use in reducing the threat of terrorists. The four who took out London on 7 Jul would have been carrying perfectly legal ID cards. They were not illegal immigrants. They were British citizens.

To combat terrorism (IMHO) the solution is to not let the terrorist dictate any changes to our life. What are the terrorists goals? Once they have been identified (or at least best guessed) then an action plan can be formed. Knee jerk reactions and public hysteria are not a "good plan." I do not mean to disparage the officers involved in Friday's shooting in any way, shape or form, but their actions are an example of the terrorist winning. People are "terrorised" into carrying out actions they would never normally consider. To me, this is an effective goal of the terrorist.

(rant over - time for bed. sorry if I am semi-coherent).
 
#20
they never managed to change one thing about the way British people went about their lives. One strike by these "islamist" scumbags and people are crying out for a regime change in the UK.
Good point well made Spindler. But then the IRA didn't have various media outlets trying to whip up hysteria.
 

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