Could we have stopped the bear?

[smartascarrots]

I'd always thought Verdansk was modelled on Donetsk. Every day a school day.

 

[CutLunchCommando]

I'd always thought Verdansk was modelled on Donetsk. Every day a school day.

Yes but they added the array in the 'Cold War' shenanigans.
The swimming pool was from Pripyat from the get go though.

 

[LD17]

Since the ARRSEchives is currently defunct, if anyone is interested in Staff Officer's Handbooks going back to the 1960's, a very nice German gentleman has pried them loose from the MOD (apparently I was only fit do get heavily redacted versions) complete.

Holger Loeher - Freedom of Information requests

www.whatdotheyknow.com

Here is the 1988 version, again complete

Staff Officer's Handbook - a Freedom of Information request to British Army

Hello, I'm requesting any staff officers' handbooks available from 1988–1992. Any links for them available online would be even better, but if not pds would be great. Yours faithfully, David Arbeely

www.whatdotheyknow.com

 

[LD17]

Need some advice....as ARRSE members are one of my target audiences for my BAOR document I would like to know some opinions. I am currently in the final stages of an update. This one will NOT feature the GDP as I am awaiting one final document. However it will clear some things up and add more information on equipment. I had thought to highlight the notes better. As of now i was going to leave the "technical" notes (equipment, conversion, etc) as is, but I was going to highlight the important notes and vignettes. I have attached some examples and would like opinions, does it enhance or distract, etc. I am open to any other formatting recommendations. Thank you.

 

[oscar1whisky]

Need some advice....as ARRSE members are one of my target audiences for my BAOR document I would like to know some opinions. I am currently in the final stages of an update. This one will NOT feature the GDP as I am awaiting one final document. However it will clear some things up and add more information on equipment. I had thought to highlight the notes better. As of now i was going to leave the "technical" notes (equipment, conversion, etc) as is, but I was going to highlight the important notes and vignettes. I have attached some examples and would like opinions, does it enhance or distract, etc. I am open to any other formatting recommendations. Thank you.
View attachment 625172

View attachment 625173

View attachment 625174

Going back to the mid- late 70s, each armoured brigade included a regiment ( 3 batteries), of 18 guns, FV433 Abbot 105mm.
Each armoured division had a further " medium" regiment made up of 2 batteries of M10 9, 155mm, at 6 guns per battery, plus a heavy battery, 4 guns, of M110, 203mm.
Corps artillery comprised 2 air defence regiments, 1 regiment of M107, 175mm guns, and 50 Missile Regiment with Lance.
Later shuffling put all the M110 batteries into a single regiment, while each medium/ 155mm regiment gained a 3rd battery of M109.
UK based medium regiments used FH70.
Unsure whether Abbot was replaced by further buys of M109 or by the British As 90, but still struggling to see where 100 guns per division came from?

 

[LD17]

Going back to the mid- late 70s, each armoured brigade included a regiment ( 3 batteries), of 18 guns, FV433 Abbot 105mm.
Each armoured division had a further " medium" regiment made up of 2 batteries of M10 9, 155mm, at 6 guns per battery, plus a heavy battery, 4 guns, of M110, 203mm.
Corps artillery comprised 2 air defence regiments, 1 regiment of M107, 175mm guns, and 50 Missile Regiment with Lance.
Later shuffling put all the M110 batteries into a single regiment, while each medium/ 155mm regiment gained a 3rd battery of M109.
UK based medium regiments used FH70.
Unsure whether Abbot was replaced by further buys of M109 or by the British As 90, but still struggling to see where 100 guns per division came from?

3 AD, those guns would be sent forward, one to each DAG, Tac GPS would stay (33 ABs supporting FD Regt stayed with them initially, if they had to help the Belgians)
So each DAG, in the 90’s after AS90 was rolled out would have 96 155mm guns (24 per Fd Regt)

 

[LD17]

Forgot to add the 18x FH70s in the GSG. So would be 114x 155mm tubes

 

[LD17]

Gents,
I am perusing the WMR doc I pulled from Kew.....as I have read, the BAS/RARS ammo/equipment scales were base on 6 days @ 100% and then a further 2 days @ 40%. Now 10% losses a day is sober reading, but to be completely out of ammo/equipment after 8 days, well, to me was kind of circumspect. I wanted to see what you guys thought of the numbers I was pulling from the documents..... especially from the guys who did this for a living......
1) a document dated 16 June 1993 discussing the cost and timescale related to moving 4,867 MLRS pods from Wulfen to Kineton. These are expressly stated as WMR and not ammo held at unit level.

2) 33,000 L14 charges for the Challenger 1 120mm gun were procured for Op. Granby

3) The stock (1 April 1991) of 76mm ammo for the Scorpion's gun were as follows: 50,560 HESH; 7,132 Canister; 6,244 de-coppering (for Training)

4) As of 5 Feb 1990, the WMR fleet in BAOR was: 85 Chieftain Mk10s or earlier (Fit, which I am guessing means ready to go/no maintenance issues?). 227 Chieftain Mk11s (59 Fit & 168 VOR, ie Vehicle Off Road. 70 of which could be made Fit by cannibilizing the 85 earlier Mks)

5) As per DMO, the WMR calculation for MBTs was 36%, the AVRE WMR was 6%. In a paper date 2 Oct 1990, it is requested that the Armd Engr Veh percentage should be upped to 36% also.

6) DMO published another paper titled Global WMR Ammunition Liabilities 27 Sept 1990. I have the explanatory notes BUT the appendixes with the actual numbers are missing !!!! However, for BAOR, I can extract the following:

- ABBOT/Lt Gun = 3,000 HE; 3,000 CART N; 2,000 Illum

- 30mm Rarden liabilities were based on 224 SCIMITAR (510 rds per veh), 585 WARRIOR (600 rds per veh), 200 FOX (200 rds per veh), 12 FV432 (Rarden), & 24 FOX (last two in Berlin). All rounds were divided HE 39% APDS 61%.

- MRLS Phase 1 rockets were funded for 48,000 to year 2000. Phase 2 funded buy was 6,606.

- MILAN was calculated based on 54 Spartan MCT @ 42 missiles each and 750 FPs @ 26 missiles each.
(13x AI/MI(T) Bns, 5x MI(W) Bns, 2x Airmobile Bns, 3x Para(V) Bns, 17x Regular MILAN Pls, & 21x TA MILAN Pls)

7) On 8 Aug 1990 it was agreed BAS/RARS was no longer suitable for calculating the Army's sustainability and ammunition planning would be based on NATO's Stockpile Planning Guidance (SPG)

to be continued

 

[AlienFTM]

The stock (1 April 1991) of 76mm ammo for the Scorpion's gun were as follows: 50,560 HESH; 7,132 Canister; 6,244

Surprised at the number of canister rounds. It was effectively a shotgun round for the 76, a last resort when you were being charged by a battalion of suicide Chinese (Korea) that did as good a job on the barrel as it did on 1,000 Chinese, and in the late 70s - early 80s, we only ever saw one round per range period, assigned to the Scorpion with the most-nearly life-expired barrel, to demonstrate its effectiveness against a wall of balloons at 50m (and any pigeon unfortunate enough to fly into the cone of fire on the W of the gunner's FIRING NOW!) On return, the Scorpion got a new barrel.

We were led to believe that it had become illegal under Geneva after Korea, and that they hadn't been manufactured since before Scorpion came into service. Sole purpose of the exercise was to use up stocks.

But we've had this discussion on these pages before. I've seen video of what may have been the Flechette round fired from an Abrams that goes downrange before going shotgun.

Just reiterating what they told us.

 

[LD17]

if @HIGHLANDER_SPY was still around here I would ask him direct but.....
Int corps sections (and detachments for brigades) How many officers and other ranks are in each?

 

[06FA56Paderborn]

if @HIGHLANDER_SPY was still around here I would ask him direct but.....
Int corps sections (and detachments for brigades) How many officers and other ranks are in each?

Down at the Bde level in the late 80’s in 4th Armd Bde I as the SO2G2 had a SSgt and a LCpl in my Int cell with the occasional help from an Arty Int Bdr, though he seemed to spend most of his time with the Arty cell so never sure he was on my establishment or was overwhelmed by the conversational abilities of the aunt Corps guys and sought sanctuary with the Gunners.

 

[Clunker]

Back to the title of this thread. "Could we have stopped the Bear". To be rather simple in answering it yes we could because we did.

"The greatest victory is the one that requires no battle"

Boris did not think he could win so he did not try, else this site would be in cyrillic.

 

[retread2]

if @HIGHLANDER_SPY was still around here I would ask him direct but.....
Int corps sections (and detachments for brigades) How many officers and other ranks are in each?

83 Int Sect at 24 Airportable Bde '73 - '74 had a Capt, a SSgt, a Sgt, a Cpl phot (RAOC) and a Pte/LCpl. The Sgt was the step-up bloke leaving three of us for 24 hour coverage. I believe the other two sections at Airportable Bdes (81 and 82) were similarly manned. The drive home from any ex was always fun.

@Whiskybreath any comments?

 

[LD17]

Slightly OT, bit since we are using this as the unofficial BAOR/Cold War Thread.....

Has anyone heard or know about these two documents? I sent out a FOI request but I am preparing for the standard "it's at Kew" (it's not, at least under those titles, I already checked)

Territorial Army Operational Readiness Study 9 August 1988

Study of the TAVRA into Potential Recruiting Areas D/DARC/17/1/29/6 25 August 1989

 

[Yokel]

I wonder if anyone is interested in this old public relations film by NATO? Not only does it describe the background to the Cold War and the establishment of NATO, but it outlines the dual strategy of deterrence and detected, outlines the SACLANT, CINCHAN, and SACEUR areas, and gives an outline of the flexible response doctrine.

I like the comments aimed at the peace movement and parallels with appeasement in the 1930s.

 

[PapaGolf]

I got told by an instructor at Def CBRN Cen at Winterbourne Gunner. I'll see what I can dig out on the tinterweb

I’m not going to go through the 51 pages until I get back to work, in the interim....

Special Atomic Demolition Munition - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

and...

Suitcase nuclear device - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[gaijin]

I’m not going to go through the 51 pages until I get back to work, in the interim....

Special Atomic Demolition Munition - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

and...

Suitcase nuclear device - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

No doubt about both sides having easily portable nukes however I remain sceptical about there being 150 of them hidden in the UK and that only 148 were recovered.

I'm not saying that pre-positioned nukes weren't a thing, there have certainly been persistent rumours over the years, particularly in the US, but the above numbers, for the UK alone, seem a trifle...optimistic.

 

[PapaGolf]

I don’t see that number as being too high. If you weigh up the inner city density, plus number of big towns, cities, industrial areas, ship yards et al. I think it seems perfectly reasonable

 

[gaijin]

The higher the number the more chance of detection, either physical or intelligence led, or accident. Not only that but it is overkill - 1 or 2 (4-5 at best), in the right place at the right time, would be more than enough to cripple the country.

 

[oscar1whisky]

Anyone know what the Soviets' plans were for dealing with NATO PoWs?