Could the GPMG be improved?

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LE
Kit Reviewer
As I have said before... ye old M60E4 spec is about as good as it gets. Made the Pig a bit more balanced and un-pig-like, and lower weight. Lost a bit of range with the shorter barrel, but accuracy at range is never going to be it's purpose. I'd really like to get my mitts on some of the newer titanium core to see how that runs with mine.
If you've a M60E4 and consider it to be the mutt's, have you used/shot an original MAG, a GPMG and a PKM ?
 
If you've a M60E4 and consider it to be the mutt's, have you used/shot an original MAG, a GPMG and a PKM ?
I do. MAG? Yes. Ok... awkward pig, just like all the other longer barrel pigs. L7A2 with nice, fidgety regulator? Yes. Same awkward pig with plastic surgery. PKM? Yes, once at a range event... x54R is just nasty...

Jumped the M60E3, and M240... preferred the E3 back then, and when parts came on the market to upgrade my personal to E4 I went for it.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
I do. MAG? Yes. Ok... awkward pig, just like all the other longer barrel pigs. L7A2 with nice, fidgety regulator? Yes. Same awkward pig with plastic surgery. PKM? Yes, once at a range event... x54R is just nasty...

Jumped the M60E3, and M240... preferred the E3 back then, and when parts came on the market to upgrade my personal to E4 I went for it.
When you say "personal" M60, is that personal issue or personally owned ?
The MAG I like, the basic design, (with the robbed parts like the M60,) is outstanding.
The GPMG is like the Homo Erectus to the Cro Magnon MAG.
The PKM is lighter and has a longer range.

Interestingly when the M60 was getting it's heaviest criticism, I knew an ouen who was ex-ADF.
He used both the MAG and M60, and whilst they were different he was unable to decide which he liked best.
Then he tried the GPMG and the rest is history.
 
When you say "personal" M60, is that personal issue or personally owned ?
The MAG I like, the basic design, (with the robbed parts like the M60,) is outstanding.
The GPMG is like the Homo Erectus to the Cro Magnon MAG.
The PKM is lighter and has a longer range.

Interestingly when the M60 was getting it's heaviest criticism, I knew an ouen who was ex-ADF.
He used both the MAG and M60, and whilst they were different he was unable to decide which he liked best.
Then he tried the GPMG and the rest is history.
Personally owned Maremont, since 1985. Upgraded in 95. The 240 is just the MAG with extra fiddly bits, like the GPMG. The E3 (and later E4) with the shorter barrels are much more balanced, which makes for better jumping and humping. Still have a long barrel and heavy barrel option with E4, if needed, and they are all stellite lined fixing a lot of cleaning and corrosion issues. They also fixed the issues with barrel change and stupid bipod mount of the earlier versions.

PKM is a tiny bit more brutish, and quite a lot dirtier.

As far as MAG variants... I'd probably go for a MAG 10.10 over the MAG 60.20 for similar reasons of balance.

The blokes down under seem to waver with what they are carrying due to the overabundance of choices they have... The F89 is basically our M249 which is what they replaced our M60 with, I think they still issue the MAG 58, L1A1s, and our old M-16s, but went through that ugly Steyr bull-pup phase for a while, kind of like you, but buying outside as they do, instead of wasting 5x the money on inhouse design development and redesign, refit, redesign, etc.. but now I am wandering into the shallow end of the Infantry weapons pool...
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
Personally owned Maremont, since 1985. Upgraded in 95.
Excellent, can you send it down here for a bit ?
Fancy having it on the big range with other types.

The 240 is just the MAG with extra fiddly bits, like the GPMG.
Which fiddly bits are these ?

The E3 (and later E4) with the shorter barrels are much more balanced, which makes for better jumping and humping.
But like the Minimi Para means the potential of the rd is not exploited.

Still have a long barrel and heavy barrel option with E4, if needed, and they are all stellite lined fixing a lot of cleaning and corrosion issues.
That's common feature of most MGs with a quick change bbl, or if not can be designed in as was done with the M60.
Obviously any gun with a bearing near the muzzle can't accept shorter bbls.)

As far as MAG variants... I'd probably go for a MAG 10.10 over the MAG 60.20 for similar reasons of balance.
Balance is one advantage the GPMG has over other MAGs.
 
Excellent, can you send it down here for a bit ?
Fancy having it on the big range with other types.
Sounds fun, but will have to wait til I can afford my own sea-going yacht and can worry less about the vagaries of travel with autos out and in of the US.

Which fiddly bits are these ?
Generally, the adjustable gas regulators which still leave them firing at a higher rate than the M60, wasting all that ammo.

But like the Minimi Para means the potential of the rd is not exploited.
Ah yes... accuracy and range is of very much importance with enfilade and defilade fire. Much more so than not running out of ammo. Oh, wait...

That's common feature of most MGs with a quick change bbl, or if not can be designed in as was done with the M60.
Was a comparison against older M60s which were even more awkward pigs than the MAGs.

Balance is one advantage the GPMG has over other MAGs.
Maybe I would change my mind if I got to jump and hump it for a year or three... but I doubt it.

I am old, and set in my ways. And I am accustomed to being without an AG, carrying my own spares and at least 1.5x the normal combat load, and moving under my own power, after taking advantage of gravity as a delivery method. Therefore my "precision firing" at the beaten zone will not generally be from swinging between sector stakes with my nuts in the mud or in a sling in a ring slapping a driver in the k-pot, but that firing will definitely be at a lower cyclic rate than a MAG so I don't immediately blow through my entire load in 5 seconds.

*although now it would more probably be employed swinging out a slot in my reinforced door-way, with a pallet of ammo cans sat beside me.
 
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You two getting all cranky over M60's...........did you notice Brownell's started offering semi-auto Miniguns earlier this year, on April the 1st. The clue is in the date.

 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
Sounds fun, but will have to wait til I can afford my own sea-going yacht and can worry less about the vagaries of travel with autos out and in of the US.
As long as you're not in a landlocked state I'll happily wait.
We'll supply the fodder too.

Generally, the adjustable gas regulators which still leave them firing at a higher rate than the M60, wasting all that ammo.
The GPMG and the 240 have very different gas regulators and other "fiddly bits."
Also we tend to teach our troops to release the trigger before the belt is used up.

Ah yes... accuracy and range is of very much importance with enfilade and defilade fire. Much more so than not running out of ammo. Oh, wait...
Also we tend to teach our troops to release the trigger before the belt is used up.

Maybe I would change my mind if I got to jump and hump it for a year or three... but I doubt it.

I am old, and set in my ways. And I am accustomed to being without an AG, carrying my own spares and at least 1.5x the normal combat load, and moving under my own power, after taking advantage of gravity as a delivery method. Therefore my "precision firing" at the beaten zone will not generally be from swinging between sector stakes with my nuts in the mud or in a sling in a ring slapping a driver in the k-pot, but that firing will definitely be at a lower cyclic rate than a MAG so I don't immediately blow through my entire load in 5 seconds.
Leave your pomping out of this.
Also we tend to teach our troops to release the trigger before the belt is used up.
 
As long as you're not in a landlocked state I'll happily wait.
We'll supply the fodder too.
I am in machine gun unfriendly WA. The Maremont currently resides in a mid-western state (with the rest of my auto arsenal) with navigable river access, eventually, to the gulf and points beyond.

The GPMG and the 240 have very different gas regulators and other "fiddly bits."
Also we tend to teach our troops to release the trigger before the belt is used up.
Yes 10 v 3 settings, if I recall. And a short sweep with a trigger press will vary in length depending on the angle of engagement to the mass of the target. In defilade will obviously take more time time to sweep and thus use more ammo, even more so at a higher cyclic rate with a heavier pig. We tend to gloss over the finer points assuming that most of those having experience will understand them, not ignore and mis-interpret. I also am not inclined to writing dissertations with my thumb, even if it does have a loverly, non-feeling, rough bit near the tip to use which was achieved through finding a hole worn through an asbestos glove...

Also we tend to teach our troops to release the trigger before the belt is used up.
Yes... we know...

Leave your pomping out of this.
Also we tend to teach our troops to release the trigger before the belt is used up.
No pomping, just establishment of how my ingrained preferences were forged, and an examination of why that leads me to favor my M60E4.
I even added the admission that I am unlikely to engage now, or in the future, in the manner in which my young self trained back in the day. Not noted, but implied, being a semi-stationary, possibly deranged, lump defending my empire, I would definitely be better off with a co-axial setup, say like the old M60C or even one of those overly long, overly heavy, but extremely reliable, MAG incarnations.

Again?
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
I am in machine gun unfriendly WA. The Maremont currently resides in a mid-western state (with the rest of my auto arsenal) with navigable river access, eventually, to the gulf and points beyond.
My commiserations, however if you can access the Maremont and others at leisure you're not completely bereft.


Yes 10 v 3 settings, if I recall. And a short sweep with a trigger press will vary in length depending on the angle of engagement to the mass of the target. In defilade will obviously take more time time to sweep and thus use more ammo, even more so at a higher cyclic rate with a heavier pig. We tend to gloss over the finer points assuming that most of those having experience will understand them, not ignore and mis-interpret. I also am not inclined to writing dissertations with my thumb, even if it does have a loverly, non-feeling, rough bit near the tip to use which was achieved through finding a hole worn through an asbestos glove...
Good point and understood.
Personally, if I had to use a mounted MG for proper sustained fire, I'd use none of the above but an older more reliable tool.

No pomping, just establishment of how my ingrained preferences were forged, and an examination of why that leads me to favor my M60E4.
Pomping was a SA joke with sexual reference, but no worries.
We've all found our preferences directed by that we're most used to and I'm no different.
Sometimes it needs longer personal use to change them.

I even added the admission that I am unlikely to engage now, or in the future, in the manner in which my young self trained back in the day. Not noted, but implied, being a semi-stationary, possibly deranged, lump defending my empire, I would definitely be better off with a co-axial setup, say like the old M60C or even one of those overly long, overly heavy, but extremely reliable, MAG incarnations.
If you're that immobile I'm sure Obamacare will fund you a nice 20mm Vulcan for empire defence.
And if they do, tell them I've a sore leg which can be cured by issuing me a PKM.
 
My commiserations, however if you can access the Maremont and others at leisure you're not completely bereft.
True. We get together with hundreds of like minded individuals on occasion, blowing great holes in the atmosphere in front of us, and piling up brass like it was snow in Aomori.

Good point and understood.
Personally, if I had to use a mounted MG for proper sustained fire, I'd use none of the above but an older more reliable tool.
MG34 or 42?

Pomping was a SA joke with sexual reference, but no worries.
We've all found our preferences directed by that we're most used to and I'm no different.
Sometimes it needs longer personal use to change them.
I do believe I did mention a year or three might make me change my mind...

If you're that immobile I'm sure Obamacare will fund you a nice 20mm Vulcan for empire defence.
And if they do, tell them I've a sore leg which can be cured by issuing me a PKM.
My back, hips, knees, ankles, and feet are a bit fucked, but I still get out and ruck/yomp/whatever we are calling it these days in whichever location, as if I stop moving I really will turn to stone.

No need for Obama-fare, the VA pays for whatever I need in addition to a healthy pension... aside from those weapons of marginal/medium/mass destruction.

PKM? Certainly you mean a Vektor S-77... or a 'new' AEK-999. (I might have winked here, but you'd probably make another pass at me had I done so. You rascal.)
 
IMHO it just needs a proper front handguard, so that it can be fired from shoulder/waist whether the bipod is folded or not.

I think a more interesting "improvement" project would have been to update the old L4 for the modern era - lighter materials, simplified components, plastic mags & furniture, optics, etc.

THAT lmg....
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
There are only so many way's you can make a bullet thrower and to be honest if over the last 15 years of activity no smart cnut has come up with an idea then there is probably no idea to be come up with.
More like there are good designs but most NATO armies have invested so much in the current machineguns that dropping them like flaming bags of shite for a new design is not going to happen

the Saffie SS-77 seems a fantastic piece of kit

Based on the PKM with none of the PKM's faults yet used by few as so much is invested in the GPMG, M240 , FN Mag 58 and its spares, training manuals, etc.
 
Cuts would have the Vickers in 7.62 NATO, which gives you sustained fire for eternity.
A 7.62 M1917A1 would be better.

Mechanically the Browning is a simple more reliable design and easier to train gunners. No fusee springs to be weighed and set, no jigsaw puzzle Maxim lock, fewer parts
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
A 7.62 M1917A1 would be better.

Mechanically the Browning is a simple more reliable design and easier to train gunners. No fusee springs to be weighed and set, no jigsaw puzzle Maxim lock, fewer parts
I think a 7.62 M1917A1 would be a thing of beauty and joy
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
A 7.62 M1917A1 would be better.

Mechanically the Browning is a simple more reliable design and easier to train gunners. No fusee springs to be weighed and set, no jigsaw puzzle Maxim lock, fewer parts
For how long can it fire ?
 

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