Could the Germans have won WW2?

While I take your point I think that the sheer scale of the problem would cause the headache for Germany. I understand what AH wanted for the lands in the East and the cleansing of the Slavs and other sundry Untermensch.

But that couldn't happen overnight and immediately after the conquest there would be many millions still in these lands. It wouldn't be easy to achieve this cleansing in short order and once the people realised what was on their particular menu then I can't see them lying down and rolling over until it happened. There would have been widespread resistance which would not have beeen easy to control especially if aided from outside.

But also assuming that it was achieved fairly quickly then one is presented with an empty land and a mere handful of millions of German settlers as opposed to the hundreds of millions of inhabitants that occupied them before with plenty of space for them as it was.

One would have a land with extremely sparse human control and a very vulnerable land at that to outside interference and leftover partisans.

Short of driving vast hordes of people eastwards to form a mass of people in rump Russia I can't see how it could be easy for the Germans to achieve an early ethnic cleansing. Plus Germany would just be creating a potential returning army armed by Russia and just possibly the USA. Assuming any survived the trip.



AH was clear what he wanted far less clear on the how it would be done and I suspect it would have proved far more difficult than he thought.

Yes…

His 'plan' was for 90% of slavs to be 'removed', aka deaded, with just 10% retained as helot slave labour for the new Ayran settlers in the East.

And that gives you some idea of how utterly devoted from reality his plans were. He clearly didn't have a clue just how big the east and Russia was… mind you, neither did his army. He never seemed to have any thought were his hundred million spare Germans were going to come from.!

His early attempts at a spot of ethnic cleansing to produce New Germania in the East merely resulted in huge numbers of locals taking to the woods and joining the Partisans.

And even when he did start resettling Eastern lands with sound Ayrian stock… the Herren often weren't terribly impressed to find they were given land that was little moved on from the Middle Ages.
A series of complaints by German settlers in very rural Poland was dealt with by sending said settlers to KZ camps to encourage les autres.
 
Technically, the SS did but nonetheless it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if 21AG had been ordered first to secure Antwerp and then been given priority for their operation over Patton's and Hodges' forces further south.

I suspect a combination of terrain and tactical adeptness on the part of the Germans would have put the issue in the balance but securing the flanks of the famous single road would IMO have made a vast difference, as would a greater focus on the aim by US 82nd Airborne.
The Film says so, doesn't it? Parts of the 1. Fallschirm-Armee and therefore technically Luftwaffe, fought in Market-Garden too. If I remember right Montgomerys Forces had priority over those of the colonials, and your 2nd Army took the City and Harbour in early September, it was the Scheldt Estuary or better the German Forces that held it that caused problems.
 
While I take your point I think that the sheer scale of the problem would cause the headache for Germany. I understand what AH wanted for the lands in the East and the cleansing of the Slavs and other sundry Untermensch.

But that couldn't happen overnight and immediately after the conquest there would be many millions still in these lands. It wouldn't be easy to achieve this cleansing in short order and once the people realised what was on their particular menu then I can't see them lying down and rolling over until it happened. There would have been widespread resistance which would not have beeen easy to control especially if aided from outside.

But also assuming that it was achieved fairly quickly then one is presented with an empty land and a mere handful of millions of German settlers as opposed to the hundreds of millions of inhabitants that occupied them before with plenty of space for them as it was.

One would have a land with extremely sparse human control and a very vulnerable land at that to outside interference and leftover partisans.

Short of driving vast hordes of people eastwards to form a mass of people in rump Russia I can't see how it could be easy for the Germans to achieve an early ethnic cleansing. Plus Germany would just be creating a potential returning army armed by Russia and just possibly the USA. Assuming any survived the trip.



AH was clear what he wanted far less clear on the how it would be done and I suspect it would have proved far more difficult than he thought.
I'm not going to claim that Hitler had a great plan, but it's the plan he laid out in his book where he described what he saw as the future for Germany. He was a big picture man, his subordinates were required to fill in the details.

For example he wanted the Jews exterminated. He was very careful to not actually put anything in writing which would link that directly to him, but it was pretty clear that this goal came down from him.

However, that left the problem of how to kill all the Jews? It wasn't easy to kill that many people when you try to put it into practice. Eventually proposals were made involving gas chambers and crematoria which could process that many people. I guess where there's a will, there's a way.

The German plan for the invasion of the Soviet Union was heavily based on what is called the "Hunger Plan". Food was to be confiscated and used to feed the German army and also shipped back to Germany. The plan was for tens of millions of Soviet citizens to die of starvation.

Here's a quote from the plan's conclusions, prepared for a meeting on the logistics of the invasion:

1.) The war can only be continued if the entire Wehrmacht is fed from Russia in the third year of the war.
2.) If we take what we need out of the country, there can be no doubt that tens of millions of people will die of starvation.


So the early phases of exterminating the Slavs would have come about simply as a consequence of starvation after confiscating all the food during the war.

As the war didn't progress as well as the Germans hand planned the full extent of the Hunger Plan was not able to be put into effect. None the less millions of Soviet citizens still died of starvation as a result of it.
 

Dwarf

LE
I'm not going to claim that Hitler had a great plan, but it's the plan he laid out in his book where he described what he saw as the future for Germany. He was a big picture man, his subordinates were required to fill in the details.

For example he wanted the Jews exterminated. He was very careful to not actually put anything in writing which would link that directly to him, but it was pretty clear that this goal came down from him.

However, that left the problem of how to kill all the Jews? It wasn't easy to kill that many people when you try to put it into practice. Eventually proposals were made involving gas chambers and crematoria which could process that many people. I guess where there's a will, there's a way.

The German plan for the invasion of the Soviet Union was heavily based on what is called the "Hunger Plan". Food was to be confiscated and used to feed the German army and also shipped back to Germany. The plan was for tens of millions of Soviet citizens to die of starvation.

Here's a quote from the plan's conclusions, prepared for a meeting on the logistics of the invasion:

1.) The war can only be continued if the entire Wehrmacht is fed from Russia in the third year of the war.
2.) If we take what we need out of the country, there can be no doubt that tens of millions of people will die of starvation.


So the early phases of exterminating the Slavs would have come about simply as a consequence of starvation after confiscating all the food during the war.

As the war didn't progress as well as the Germans hand planned the full extent of the Hunger Plan was not able to be put into effect. None the less millions of Soviet citizens still died of starvation as a result of it.
The non-value the Nazis placed on human life including that of their own people always amazes me, and to the lengths they were prepared to go.

I know they had plans for the Slavs, I didn't know about the Hunger Plan as such. However I still reckon that there would have been more resistance than they bargained for when the locals wised up to their chances of survival under their new masters and their task would not have been straightforward.

I suppose on one hand we were lucky they didn't win, but on the other good old Uncle Joe managed to wipe out a fair few millions of his own people instead of the Germans doing it, so the poor Russians suffered both ways.
 
The non-value the Nazis placed on human life including that of their own people always amazes me, and to the lengths they were prepared to go.

I know they had plans for the Slavs, I didn't know about the Hunger Plan as such. However I still reckon that there would have been more resistance than they bargained for when the locals wised up to their chances of survival under their new masters and their task would not have been straightforward.

I suppose on one hand we were lucky they didn't win, but on the other good old Uncle Joe managed to wipe out a fair few millions of his own people instead of the Germans doing it, so the poor Russians suffered both ways.
Russian Resistance went off the scale after December 1941, and it was 100% a German own goal.

rather proud of their wholesale slaughter of the untermensch, everyone at the front was keeping diaries and happy snaps of Aktions As they headed to Moscow.
Alas for the Germans, the Russians rather perfidiouly struck back in December recapturing lands from the Germans. Hard evidence in the form of witnesses, fresh graves and the diligent German records fell into their hands, along with the culprits, it was a propaganda gold mine.

after that, it wasn’t hard to convince Russian peasants to burn their crops, kill their livestock, burn down their houses and head off into the bush as the Germans advanced Leaving scorched earth.
Did wonders with the fighting spirit of Russian troops too.... no longer any need for threats, they were furious and determined to get stuck in and kill the Germans.

never mind Stalin, Unkle Adolfs little away day Moscow resulted in @ 10 million Russian military and @ 16 million civilian dead.... @ 6 million of the civilians from disease/starvation courtesy of German action.
 
War Plan Black

America was slowly trying to mobilize prior to our official entry in WW2.




One could say the UK was buying time for America to prepare for our eventual entry in WW2.
by late 1940, the US had 10,000 military ‘observers’ with the British.

see Lt Smith USN, Lt Johnson USN and Ensign Rinehart USN in the RAF Catalinas tracking Bismarck in early 1941

iirc, Lt Smith USN was the first American decorated for action against the Germans. Got a DFC.
 
bit of a problem with that one...

irelands too far away for light German aircraft to reach

the Royal Navy still owns the sea

norn Iron is defended by two battle tested Divisions and plenty of modern air power.

And of course we have the other problem.
Dublin was cooperating closely with London on defence measures to be taken if theGermans tried to invade.... Plan W
Hollicks!!!!

That info has spoilt my memoirs, book & film;

Taoiseach Eamon de Valera and my part in his Downfall 1939 to 1945.

The book was based on my previous posting and the film would have the following actors based on previous film/TV series; (Artistic Licence & to satisfy the Lovelys at the BBC),

Michael Canine, German Paratrooper Major, former Prisoner with a sense of style and VW Beetle racing car driver who leads the first drop in to Belfast Airport to secure a bridgehead for the main attacking Axis Forces. Dressed in British uniforms (the cad) who comes unstuck in the first moments of hitting the DZ by falling into a drainage ditch, dumps his wet British uniform to revel a immaculately tailored and smartly pressed German Uniform with the Iron Cross 1st Class etc. Convinces the Airport Staff & the RAF Regiment that it is an exercise until it is too late for them to take action after they realise thier mistake. Customs & Exercise don't take no shit and still confiscate his excessive duty free and explosives (don't want to blow any doors off do we sir). Immigration detain him for an hour to check his identity of Patrick (Paddy) 'O' Level Bismark the 2nd from Dublin, Lower Rhine Westcountry.

Sean Bean (playing me), former WW1 (ASC Bus Driver) Veteran, Ulster Bus Driver, Trade Unionist and a wooly Liberal Social Democrat, part time Insurance Salesman suffering from shell shock/PTSD (where there blame there's a claim) after transporting troops from the railway station in Southampton to Marchwood Military Port. Having to negotiate the Dockside Dollies (Booties in dresses) and the 17 Sports & Pastime (RE or ASC) Pads Wives at the gate in converted London Transport buses (1914 to 1919), could not serve in France due to suffering from sea sickness brought on by a trip on the Isle of Wight ferry when he was nothing but a lad on a day trip from Sheffield with his Dad, selling scrap metal and trying to get a job as a adult entertainer/stripper in Portsmouth. His downfall was his flat cap, his whippets, ferrets & Yorkshire Tea bags. Plus the Booties did not like him.

Sean realises what is happening and rounds up all the Ulster Bus Drivers in thier bright blue buses and convinces the GOC at Lisburn that all the HQ Ulster pot washes, slop jockeys, stackers, slackers, sick, lame and lazy to mount the said buses and proceed to Belfast airport to save the day at a daily rate of double time and free meals in the Officers Mess for the said bus drivers. Once the counter attack has succeeded Sean finds the GOC renegades on his deal which results in all the bus drivers going on strike, driving to beach at Bangor, burning thier buses and making the 'rear eschon warriors' walk back to Lisburn.

Michael Crawford (Frank Spencer/Phantom of the Cinema) plays the roll as a inefficient passed over QM AOC type who nearly screws everything up (puts the blame on his badly shaped beret and poor personal white facecam) by supplying the wrong sized ammo (.303) for the new unpopular protype British rifle call the SLR L1A1 complete with a handbag type carrying handle which is on general issue, luckily the bus carrying warriors manage to seize a supply of previously captured (by the Germans) Belguim ammo in the right size 7.62 x 51, which had inadvertently been loaded on to the JU52's by an equally incompetent German Tankie QM (starred in Hello Hello). The day was also saved by the BREN GUN which was still chambered for .303, (a real man stopper, none of this metric rimless foreign rubbish that won't take off).

Harry Sechumme(spl), (Ghonnes Show) plays the role as a bumbling L/BDR with the local acting rank of Battery Commander with strict orders not to shell the Irish Republic but to wait until the Irish Free States Army have crossed into Ulster and shell them in the border regions (or other part of thier bodies where it equally hurts). Harry follows the order to the letter and ensure the guns fire thier rounds to 'drop short' and end up wiping out Portadown & Lurgan, No loss there and no enemy casualties.

Michael Kitchener (Foyles War) plays the role of a RMP Lt Col tasked to investigate the war crimes of the Cromwell Army. Assisted by the double act called Gerry & Martin who also make good ice cream. Prosecutions are due to commence in 2020.

Lassie plays a dog which gets lost on day 1 and is never seen on the set again.

Lenny Henry (to satisfy the BBC inclusive programme) plays the role of a comedian!!!! who's documentation and qualifications are a bit questionable. Avoids being questioned by the Immigration service on either side of the border as his house is actually on the line of the border, he simples changes rooms during the raids. Due to the hostilities between both the Northern (Ulster) and Southern Irish Border Forces they are unable to coordinate a joint raid.

Suzanne George plays the top tottie in uniform, nuff said.

Kojac plays the role of an American Lee/Grant Tank Commander (to satisfy the American market), sailing in just in time to save the day by leading an armour column and capturing a number of Irish Free State Army 4 ton trucks loaded with empty fuel containers.

I could go on but I will not, you get the picture.
 
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I think Bletchley Park may have had quite a bit to do with that. Which brings me to another point. The Germans lost the secret war very early on. *All* of their UK spys were either turned or executed before they made any real gains. They were duped at nearly every turn and much of the D day success was down to *counter* intelligence and miss direction.
Amended for accuracy.
 
An old soldier who was utterly fearless (and mental). A sailor with the Polar Medal. A Military Medal recipient. A former officer with experience of Gallipoli, the Somme and Paschendale. A trained soldier who just missed out on seeing action on WWI and dearly wants to prove himself. A fit young lad to do the running. Oh, and a spiv. All of whom know the area that they will be fighting in like the back of their hands and some of whom have already beaten the Germans. And they're defending their homes.

They'd probably take out a fair few Germans before succumbing. And there were thousands like them.
It was written tongue in cheek.
 
And another things all these 'could the Germans have won…' scenarios miss?

Gordon Welchman
His work on network analysis doomed the Nazis.

So powerful was this work, at wars end, everything physical connected with it was burned, the secrets stayed in his head. He was then headhunted by the NSA.

How important was network analysis?

Merely mentioning it in a passing manner in his biography in 80's resulted in the NSA withdrawing his security clearance and his word collapsing on his head.

To this day, no one knows what the work was, no records exist, its still the most secret of deep secrets guarded implacably by the NSA and GCHQ.
 

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