Could Republican and Loyalist terrorism be contained, if Sinn Fein pushed for unification?

There is a massive majority in favour of re-unification in the ROI.
Most of them haven't even thought about the practicalities of defence, fisheries, customs etc.
Why not return to your roots and do some research on this interesting topic.
Don't hurry your research.
1. The only time Ireland has been unified is under British rule, so "re-unification" has implications the Irish may not like.

2. It's not up to the ROI, it's up to the people of NI.
 
You will have to expand (accurately) on the Klan analogy – because it just makes you look like a foolish extremist, on this reading.
Consider UlsterAlabama in the 1960s - education is segregated, housing is segregated, employment is segregated, the Property FranchiseJim Crow laws are in effect, and a majority of the population have succeeded in capturing the government - where necessary, by gerrymandering. Few CatholicBlack politicians find election possible, and they are unable to pass any law to change the status quo.

There is an organisation which is exclusively Protestantwhite called the Orange LodgeKlu Klux Klan; which operates to maintain the Protestantwhite supremacy, and opposes Civil Rights for CatholicsBlacks.

The Protestantwhite supremacist organisation claims that their Orange WalksCross burnings are "traditional" and "culturally important", and deny any claim that they are triumphalist or intended to intimidate the CatholicBlack population by travelling through or alongside CatholicBlack housing areas.

The Protestantwhite supremacist organisation also claims that their belief in their own superiority is supported by the Bible, this from the pulpit of churches whose preachers openly support them. They make great claims about what dedicated Christians they are, and that they merely oppose the ungodly force of Catholiccommunist ideology.

The Protestantwhite supremacists aren't just senior politicians such as the Prime Minister of Northern IrelandGovernor of Alabama, but are also widely represented within law enforcement (rather like Billy McCaugheyJim Clark); such that legitimate protest at the status quo is met by Police beatings, such as at Burntollet BridgeMontgomery.

Hopefully not too foolishly extreme?
 
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The ADRIC together with increased intelligence and a surge by the Army forced Michael Collins and the IRA to the negiotating table. Still why let facts get in the way of myths.
you win an insurgency when you force the Occupying power to impliment measures that stop the passive majority sitting on the sidelines.
The Tans were a spectacular own goal by the British that lost them Ireland - there were no sitting back when 100% of the population is treated as ‘the enemy’ by hostile occupation forces.
 
I've skipped through several pages of this dirge just to give my own specul opinion. As an Englishman who lives along the boarder the way it is at the moment is ace for everyone except the poor English who pay for our utopia and don't know it. Cross boarder trade is cross boarder trade. No one is going to interfere. I got a fifteen quid parcel from Japan this morning and no one was bothered. Ditto I get a pile of silage wrap from the state. I suspect the same will happen in Rossendale, or Rannoch moor post FREEEEDOOM. If anyone is in doubt look at British trade during the Hundred years war. Buyer collects.
I have never understood all this fuss about what will happen to the border after Brexit.

The Irish will do, what they have been doing since partion in 1922 - smuggling.
 
Thread drift//

Where they developed a fearsome reputation, because of their brutal methods. The last Inspector General of Police in Palestine was a former Royal Marine colonel, a William Nicholl Gray, who then went to Malaya and tried similar brutal methods, with no success. Templer sacked him in 1952, with Montgomery commenting 'Never trust a man who has spent more than two years on the Equator". Templer pioneered the 'Hearts and Minds' approach (devised by his DOps predecessor Harold Briggs). The term was used in the eponymous plan, and drawn from the UN Universal Declaration.

Who said that Shrivenham was a waste of time, eh?

//Thread drift
Chin Peng, in his autobiography - the other side of history, hated Templer saying that he was a brutal thug, and as far as he was concerned it was the Briggs plan that led to the faiure of his campaign and not anything Templer did.
 
I recall the Bishop of Derry once saying that the officers he spoke to in the early part of Op Banner knew more about India than they did about Ireland. I suspect that today that would be very different........they would know more about Afghanistan.
Before 1922 a lot of British battalions when they finished their seven years in India would go straight to Ireland. The Curragh was the Aldershot or the Tidworth of Ireland. A lot of the barrack blocks in the Curragh look like the ones in Tidworth.
 
I don't think they had a choice.


"Within three or four years 146,000 Protestants had to flee from the new Irish State. Many more were murdered before they could manage to escape. There were 30 Orange Lodges in the city of Dublin, four District Lodges, a City Grand Lodge, Trinity College Grand Lodge, and seven Preceptories. Within a few months not a single one of them had survived."

"The real facts reveal more than 75 years of systematic ethnic cleansing. In 1989 the influential Dublin magazine Magill printed figures showing that between the census of 1911 – the last to precede the Treaty – and 1981, the Protestant population of the 26 Counties of Southern Ireland fell by 63%. The drop until 1989 it estimated at 68%.


The causes of this dramatic decrease – from 10% in 1911 to 3.4% in 1981 and about 2.5% by the late 1980s – were listed as “alienation from the ethos of the State, emigration, and, over latter decades, mixed marriages”. The Roman Catholic Church’s decree, backed by the Courts, that children in mixed marriages must be brought up as Roman Catholics, created “social and cultural apartheid” which “more often than not, heralded the end of the line for Protestant families”.(6) The single biggest drop in Protestant numbers occurred between 1911 and 1926, when a third of the Protestant population left the State following widespread intimidation and the burning of their properties."
RTE did a documentary in 1927 called 'The Killing at Coolacrease about an attack on the farmhouse of the Protestant Pearson familly by a gang of 30 IRA men on 30 June 1921 in Co Offaly. The heros from the IRA shot two of the sons by firing squad in front of the family. It took the two sons 12 -14 hours to bleed to death.

The family were well intergrated with the local poulation with the children attending the local catholic school and playing GAA games.

Being Protestants they were accused of being informers. The motives were sectarian with the object being seizing the familys land. The rest of the family fled the country and emigrated to Australia.

The documentary produced howls of outrage from the T.AL. fanboys with RTE being accused of being West Brit sympathisers.
 
Chin Peng, in his autobiography - the other side of history, hated Templer saying that he was a brutal thug, and as far as he was concerned it was the Briggs plan that led to the faiure of his campaign and not anything Templer did.
Templer Implemented the Briggs Plan and made the government response more 'joined up'. He also placed a much greater emphasis on the role of intelligence and championed the (very successful) role of psychological warfare.

Chin Peng"s ghost written biography is full of omissions (if that isn't contradictory) and skips over his own brutality - especially on his approach to Party discipline.
 
Templer Implemented the Briggs Plan and made the government response more 'joined up'. He also placed a much greater emphasis on the role of intelligence and championed the (very successful) role of psychological warfare.

Chin Peng"s ghost written biography is full of omissions (if that isn't contradictory) and skips over his own brutality - especially on his approach to Party discipline.
Well obviously he was a communist.

"The Terrorists don't play golf on Sunday and neither will we".
 
Robert Thompson offered them assistance in Vietnam an the effed him off............that went well.
Malay Special Branch officers served in an advisory role as part of Robeet Thomson's mission in Saigon. The Americans developed the strategic hamlet idea as a direct read-accross from the New Villages of the Briggs Plan.
 
These diversions are interesting however, I wonder if we can return to an earlier question or three?

Could UK security forces contain widespread unrest again in NI?

What would be the role of the British Army this time?

Is the corporate memory there from 25 years ago, or would the army have to relearn very painful lessons?
 
Ground Truths - British Army Operations in the Irish War of Independence by W.H. Kautt.

The book is basically a copy of 'The Record of the Rebellion in Ireland 1919 - 1921 and the Part Played by the Army in Dealing with it'

The British army's in-house account of its operations.

Page 187:

and the feeling uppermost in every officer, non-commissioned officer and man in the country was one of intense pleasure at the thought of a speedy and permanent departure from Ireland.

No change there then.
 
By virtue of having a house in or around a catholic area made you a PIRA supporter?
Are you seriously going to say that the Provisonal IRA, Official IRA and the INLA never had the vast support and backing of the community's they came from?

The UDA and the UVF never had it to quite the same effect, because our community had the UDR and the RUC to join to defend their community's and country.
 
Consider UlsterAlabama in the 1960s - education is segregated, housing is segregated, employment is segregated, the Property FranchiseJim Crow laws are in effect, and a majority of the population have succeeded in capturing the government - where necessary, by gerrymandering. Few CatholicBlack politicians find election possible, and they are unable to pass any law to change the status quo.

There is an organisation which is exclusively Protestantwhite called the Orange LodgeKlu Klux Klan; which operates to maintain the Protestantwhite supremacy, and opposes Civil Rights for CatholicsBlacks.

The Protestantwhite supremacist organisation claims that their Orange WalksCross burnings are "traditional" and "culturally important", and deny any claim that they are triumphalist or intended to intimidate the CatholicBlack population by travelling through or alongside CatholicBlack housing areas.

The Protestantwhite supremacist organisation also claims that their belief in their own superiority is supported by the Bible, this from the pulpit of churches whose preachers openly support them. They make great claims about what dedicated Christians they are, and that they merely oppose the ungodly force of Catholiccommunist ideology.

The Protestantwhite supremacists aren't just senior politicians such as the Prime Minister of Northern IrelandGovernor of Alabama, but are also widely represented within law enforcement (rather like Billy McCaugheyJim Clark); such that legitimate protest at the status quo is met by Police beatings, such as at Burntollet BridgeMontgomery.

Hopefully not too foolishly extreme?
I read it twice to see where riding horses while wearing pillowcases (with eyesockets cut out) over their heads, burning/whipping people, tying them to the back bumpers of vehicles and towing them around fitted into Ulster – nope.
 
Are you seriously going to say that the Provisonal IRA, Official IRA and the INLA never had the vast support and backing of the community's they came from?

The UDA and the UVF never had it to quite the same effect, because our community had the UDR and the RUC to join to defend their community's and country.
Not vast in my mixed town e.g appearance at funerals - for the tv footage - knowing there would be hassle if you didn’t, was reluctant
 
Not vast in my mixed town e.g appearance at funerals - for the tv footage - knowing there would be hassle if you didn’t, was reluctant
In mainly Nationalist area's, it's my belief that they would've had the vast majority of the community on their side.
Sinn Feins rise to power from the 80's shows some underlying support for the actions of armed Republicanism, or they would still be voting for the SDLP in their droves.
 

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