Could Republican and Loyalist terrorism be contained, if Sinn Fein pushed for unification?

CCOB was certainly from Republican aristocracy as his family on both sides were actively involved in the National Cause. He also worked as a young diplomat for the Irish government's anti-partition campaign in the 50s under Dev.

He joined Labour and was very prominent in Irish leftist circles in the 60s and recognised from a very early stage the danger of the Provos and was to the forefront in actions against them, initiating Section 31. The Provos absolutely hated him beyond any Unionist politician in the North. In later years he joined Bob McCartney's Unionist party.

Speaking of the Orange in 1971 he was in Derry to watch the Apprentice Boys and was wandering around the field at St Columb's Park went he was identified as a southern Fenian and beaten up.

You can always rely on the Prods to shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to promotion and propaganda.
Why do you use the word 'Prods' when it seems you mean to refer to Loyalists thugs ?
 
Why do you use the word 'Prods' when it seems you mean to refer to Loyalists thugs ?
Just a bit of harmless banter, not meant seriously.

I think it's a bit of a given over the years that when it came to media savvy-ness and public relations, the Unionist side of the house was never quite as effective as the Nationalists when it came to getting their message across and gaining world sympathy, and beating the shite out of one of your biggest allies among the political and media elite (CCO'B) was just one minor example of this.

No offence was intended.
 
Just a bit of harmless banter, not meant seriously.

I think it's a bit of a given over the years that when it came to media savvy-ness and public relations, the Unionist side of the house was never quite as effective as the Nationalists when it came to getting their message across and gaining world sympathy, and beating the shite out of one of your biggest allies among the political and media elite (CCO'B) was just one minor example of this.

No offence was intended.
Thank you.
Agree your main point
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
He only started locking them up when they didn't serve their purpose anymore and when he couldn't control them. He didn't mind when they were giving the Brits problems. It's when they started causing problems for the Free State he had some of them topped.

After all, Dev knew a bit about facism didn't he.

Didn't you have a chap in the Irish Government called Charles Haughty who was gun running to the IRA. Had his hands in the till when he became Irish PM or whatever you call it.
Yes, why didn’t Dev, and every other rebel leader of an ex British colony do the British counter insurgency work for it.
Begin, Gandhi, Kenyatta et al.
i wouldn’t defend Haughey on anything, him and Johnson would be well matched on the trustworthy stakes though.

As for support for Fascism, there were loads of it in British ‘high’ society.
Lord Londonderry, Astors and Edward VIII and the woman were fans as were the Mitfords and a Mosley or two.
PJ being a common greeting in some of the upper crustier circles.

Then you’d the boss of the Daily Mail, the paper itself and those who put on a blackshirt. They had ties to Public schools, claimed a membership of 40,000 and managed a last gasp rally of 12,000 in London.

It sort of eclipses anything De Valera managed to do.

As for gun running, Little was proved and Haughey did nothing to dispel it. No actual materiel ever made it to the Defence Committees across the border.
Experts tend to forget that bit, any weapons were lifted by the Special Branch and the Belgians.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
Did the attitude in the South towards the IRA depend on wether the Anti Treaty Party or the Pro Treaty Party was in charge. I liked that nice Bertie Ahern. He reminded me a bit of Father Ted.
.Nope, while we let out murderers and killers as part of the GFA. The IRA killers of an Irish policeman in the commission of a robbery.
Sinn Fein were told they weren’t getting out, so don’t ask.
They didn’t.
 
.Nope, while we let out murderers and killers as part of the GFA. The IRA killers of an Irish policeman in the commission of a robbery.
Sinn Fein were told they weren’t getting out, so don’t ask.
They didn’t.
So they only let them out if they had called British soldiers or Northern Irish Protestant or Catholic Policemen and civilians.

If they killed a policeman or soldier in the security forces in the Republic they stay inside. The IRA's green book states that it is an offence to kill any policeman or soldier in the Republic of Ireland doesn't it.

I understand now.
 
As for support for Fascism, there were loads of it in British ‘high’ society.
Lord Londonderry, Astors and Edward VIII and the woman were fans as were the Mitfords and a Mosley or two.
PJ being a common greeting in some of the upper crustier circles.

Then you’d the boss of the Daily Mail, the paper itself and those who put on a blackshirt. They had ties to Public schools, claimed a membership of 40,000 and managed a last gasp rally of 12,000 in London.
I don't think any of them went to Spain to fight for Franco, or go on an Atlantic cruise in a German U-boat when the Einsatzgruppen were in full swing in the East, and the Crems in Auchwitz were getting fired up.

Also after the war most of them kept a low profile when they found out what went on. We also had upper class idiots who supported Communism in the thirties despite evidence of Stalin's show trials, purges, Gulags, and Ukranian famine.

The Republic though became a popular retirement home for ex Nazis, not only from Germany, but from other occupied European countries. Third after South America and Spain. I suppose they had better weather and food. Even old Otto Skorzeny had enough of the rain and in the end that he bug**d off to Spain.

The rest seemed to have felt welcome and right at home in Dev's Ireland.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
I don't think any of them went to Spain to fight for Franco, or go on an Atlantic cruise in a German U-boat when the Einsatzgruppen were in full swing in the East, and the Crems in Auchwitz were getting fired up.

Also after the war most of them kept a low profile when they found out what went on. We also had upper class idiots who supported Communism in the thirties despite evidence of Stalin's show trials, purges, Gulags, and Ukranian famine.

The Republic though became a popular retirement home for ex Nazis, not only from Germany, but from other occupied European countries. Third after South America and Spain. I suppose they had better weather and food. Even old Otto Skorzeny had enough of the rain and in the end that he bug**d off to Spain.

The rest seemed to have felt welcome and right at home in Dev's Ireland.
All been done earlier on and elsewhere in here. More accurately too.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
So they only let them out if they had called British soldiers or Northern Irish Protestant or Catholic Policemen and civilians.

If they killed a policeman or soldier in the security forces in the Republic they stay inside. The IRA's green book states that it is an offence to kill any policeman or soldier in the Republic of Ireland doesn't it.

I understand now.
Good I'm happy for you.

edit although your comment shows that you plainly don't. There being two seperate jurisdictions and all.
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
Good I'm happy for you.

edit although your comment shows that you plainly don't. There being two seperate jurisdictions and all.
Ah, sure and there were separate jurisdictions. And what did they bring?

MsG
 
So they only let them out if they had called British soldiers or Northern Irish Protestant or Catholic Policemen and civilians.

If they killed a policeman or soldier in the security forces in the Republic they stay inside. The IRA's green book states that it is an offence to kill any policeman or soldier in the Republic of Ireland doesn't it.

I understand now.
I am not entirely convinced that it is the job of the Irish government to uphold British rule in Northern Ireland, in a rather old-fashioned way perhaps the Irish government regards the protection of its own people and defence of its own jurisdiction as its priorities.

The British only had six Irish counties to look after, and a population of 1.5 million, of these the vast and overwhelming majority were law-abiding citizens, and the trouble was restricted to maybe two dozen parishes at worst and a few hundred insurgents.

To handle that the UK government had a vast panoply of special powers, abolished trial by jury (abolished trials completely at one stage), built a massive modern prison, recruited 13,000 extremely well-trained and well-armed professional policemen, backed up by another 12,000 or so superb troops with all the top-class facilities of one of the finest military forces in the world and excellent and well-honed intelligence services.

If with all that the British still couldn't keep a lid on things in Northern Ireland for 30 years I think any neutral observer might say the Brits needed look closer to home for the cause of the problem rather than blaming the government in Dublin.

The Irish managed to keep house in their own jurisdiction very well. The Irish government was regarded as the legitimate government of the state by 99% of the population who gave their allegiance to that state willingly. If the British couldn't say the same for their part of Ireland then it's hardly the fault of the Irish government.
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
I am not entirely convinced that it is the job of the Irish government to uphold British rule in Northern Ireland, in a rather old-fashioned way perhaps the Irish government regards the protection of its own people and defence of its own jurisdiction as its priorities.

The British only had six Irish counties to look after, and a population of 1.5 million, of these the vast and overwhelming majority were law-abiding citizens, and the trouble was restricted to maybe two dozen parishes at worst and a few hundred insurgents.

To handle that the UK government had a vast panoply of special powers, abolished trial by jury (abolished trials completely at one stage), built a massive modern prison, recruited 13,000 extremely well-trained and well-armed professional policemen, backed up by another 12,000 or so superb troops with all the top-class facilities of one of the finest military forces in the world and excellent and well-honed intelligence services.

If with all that the British still couldn't keep a lid on things in Northern Ireland for 30 years I think any neutral observer might say the Brits needed look closer to home for the cause of the problem rather than blaming the government in Dublin.

The Irish managed to keep house in their own jurisdiction very well. The Irish government was regarded as the legitimate government of the state by 99% of the population who gave their allegiance to that state willingly. If the British couldn't say the same for their part of Ireland then it's hardly the fault of the Irish government.
A brilliant post indeed!

MsG
 
I am not entirely convinced that it is the job of the Irish government to uphold British rule in Northern Ireland, in a rather old-fashioned way perhaps the Irish government regards the protection of its own people and defence of its own jurisdiction as its priorities.

The British only had six Irish counties to look after, and a population of 1.5 million, of these the vast and overwhelming majority were law-abiding citizens, and the trouble was restricted to maybe two dozen parishes at worst and a few hundred insurgents.

To handle that the UK government had a vast panoply of special powers, abolished trial by jury (abolished trials completely at one stage), built a massive modern prison, recruited 13,000 extremely well-trained and well-armed professional policemen, backed up by another 12,000 or so superb troops with all the top-class facilities of one of the finest military forces in the world and excellent and well-honed intelligence services.

If with all that the British still couldn't keep a lid on things in Northern Ireland for 30 years I think any neutral observer might say the Brits needed look closer to home for the cause of the problem rather than blaming the government in Dublin.

The Irish managed to keep house in their own jurisdiction very well. The Irish government was regarded as the legitimate government of the state by 99% of the population who gave their allegiance to that state willingly. If the British couldn't say the same for their part of Ireland then it's hardly the fault of the Irish government.
Well is Bugsy says this is a brilliant post, I rest my case.
 
With the right RoE, it would have been over in a matter of days.
At the risk of triggering PA, what would you have done differently that wasn't tried, and failed, during Op Banner?

Did the RUC not baton off the streets enough peaceful citizens demanding their civil rights?

Did the RUC not machine gun enough high rise flats full of unarmed civilians killing not enough sleeping children?

Were not enough homes burned down because their residents went to the wrong house of worship on a Sunday?

Did the Army not curfew off enough small streets of working class families, trashing their homes, killing local people and refusing to allow in food and medicine for several days?

Were not enough people rounded up in cack-handed raids and sent for torture, oops I mean "cruel and inhumane treatment" and held in prison for years without trial?

If only notoriously brutal soldiers had been sent in to arrest unarmed demonstrators and killed a dozen or so of them, would that have sorted it out?

Because that was all tried in the first three years of the problem, without notable benefit.

What particular RoE would you have recommended that Stormont/Westminster didn't try?
 
With the right RoE, it would have been over in a matter of days.
No it wouldn't have. You'd have just created more hatred and hostility on both sides and probably led to full blown conflict between the two communities as they became further entrenched.
 
No it wouldn't have. You'd have just created more hatred and hostility on both sides and probably led to full blown conflict between the two communities as they became further entrenched.
That is precisely what is required and pretty much what occurred in the south post 1922.
 

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