Could Republican and Loyalist terrorism be contained, if Sinn Fein pushed for unification?

According to the conflict archive CAIN only 30 loyalist paramilitaries were killed by the IRA. I believe this is bourne out by the detail in Lost Lives.

The IRA were apparently more effective at killing their own - some 59 suspected informers for example.

There is also a tendency to conflate 'agents' with 'informers'. The two are significantly different and were used and indeed organized differently by the RUC.

On Brian Nelson there is more not known or acknowledged about him than is appreciated. The claim that he was first recruited by the FRU in 1986 has both some truth and yet in the grand scheme of things is also utter ballox.

Smoke and mirrors gentlemen......or is that mirrors and smoke? Doubt we will ever know.
 
According to the conflict archive CAIN only 30 loyalist paramilitaries were killed by the IRA. I believe this is bourne out by the detail in Lost Lives.

The IRA were apparently more effective at killing their own - some 59 suspected informers for example.

There is also a tendency to conflate 'agents' with 'informers'. The two are significantly different and were used and indeed organized differently by the RUC.

On Brian Nelson there is more not known or acknowledged about him than is appreciated. The claim that he was first recruited by the FRU in 1986 has both some truth and yet in the grand scheme of things is also utter ballox.

Smoke and mirrors gentlemen......or is that mirrors and smoke? Doubt we will ever know.
And Loyalists apparently only killed a few Provo's during the troubles.. Yet after the troubles, so called innocent civilians started to be claimed as Republicans on rolls of honour and on murals.

The RUC even claimed that some were civilians with no connection to Republicanism, when in fact one such person was the Quartermaster for South Down PIRA, Loughlin Maginn.

A fella was shot out the back of my house in the early 1990's by Loyalists at an ice-cream manufacturer, whilst restocking his ice-cream van, near Dee Street, in East Belfast. He was a Provo from the Short Strand and his Brother was on the leadership of 3rd Batt PIRA in the Maze. He's regarded as a civilian by CAIN.
 
The disagrees for this

I agree with you in as much as its up to NI to decide if they want unification with the south however whether it happens or not is very much up to them.

Just because NI votes to leave the UK and join the South doesn't mean the Souths obliged to let them -

It does of course beg the question what happens if the should we join the south receives an overwhelming yes but the south** says yeah we dont want you -
Status quo - that's going to be seen by some as colonialism -
Cut them loose as an independent nation - I cant see that going well


**One hopes the ROIs view would be established before any such question was posed - to prevent just that scenario
Ah, i see what you mean.

Agree.

The flow chart goes UK Gov. Ddecides to offer Referendum. NI decides to have Referendum. Referendum says "unite". ROI Govt decides to have Referendum. ROI decides whether to take on the refreshingly exciting challenge.
 
And Loyalists apparently only killed a few Provo's during the troubles.. Yet after the troubles, so called innocent civilians started to be claimed as Republicans on rolls of honour and on murals.

The RUC even claimed that some were civilians with no connection to Republicanism, when in fact one such person was the Quartermaster for South Down PIRA, Loughlin Maginn.

A fella was shot out the back of my house in the early 1990's by Loyalists at an ice-cream manufacturer, whilst restocking his ice-cream van, near Dee Street, in East Belfast. He was a Provo from the Short Strand and his Brother was on the leadership of 3rd Batt PIRA in the Maze. He's regarded as a civilian by CAIN.
All civilians were innocent by definition. Those claimed as/by the paramilitaries probably less so - depending on the circumstances. As the law stood, and as it was well known to most soldiers, an unarmed paramilitary mingling in a crowd presenting no threat and on whom the soldier or policeman had no direct evidence, was as entitled to the full protection of the security forces as a month old baby.

Murals generally were a Unionist community artifact used before the troubles to celebrate the industrial heritage of communities. They were transformed because of the troubles and became symbols of perceived oppression and identity by both communities. Doubtless some are used to illustrate perceived injustice - inclusion on them would not be accepted as evidence of paramilitary membership per se.

The only civilian that I know of who was given the posthumous 'honour' of membership of the IRA was the guy who was accidentally shot by Billy McKee at St Mathews Church Short Strand in 1970. He was a friend of McKee who had come over to the East side to see if he could help.

Doubtless there are some errors of fact in the various analyses of the troubles - but in general terms the numbers are close enough to illustrate the larger picture. Also I would argue that when you look closer at what the numbers actually tell you, they reveal trends that are not easily apparent.

Time to understand and stop blaming. Constant repetition of a spurious fact isn't going to make it any more valid.
 
And Loyalists apparently only killed a few Provo's during the troubles.. Yet after the troubles, so called innocent civilians started to be claimed as Republicans on rolls of honour and on murals.

The RUC even claimed that some were civilians with no connection to Republicanism, when in fact one such person was the Quartermaster for South Down PIRA, Loughlin Maginn.

A fella was shot out the back of my house in the early 1990's by Loyalists at an ice-cream manufacturer, whilst restocking his ice-cream van, near Dee Street, in East Belfast. He was a Provo from the Short Strand and his Brother was on the leadership of 3rd Batt PIRA in the Maze. He's regarded as a civilian by CAIN.
We are going round in circles. I was replying to this post but neglected to quote it - apologies.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
Are you seriously going to say that the Provisonal IRA, Official IRA and the INLA never had the vast support and backing of the community's they came from?

The UDA and the UVF never had it to quite the same effect, because our community had the UDR and the RUC to join to defend their community's and country.

No of course not, and it wasnt vast support which was needed, all it took was a tolerance, a blind eye.


Every kicking handed out, not to mention the prospect of being tortured and murdered on the way home would have been enough to tip the balance.

And as for support for loyalist terrorists, such a vast swathe of support.

Ex military types manning the barricades for the vigilantes. Organising barricade duty and patrols. Yet when the UDA set themselves up, most of the ex military faded like snow off a ditch.

Didn't want to know. Of course the RUCR may not have paid as well as extortion, murder and drugs.......
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
The attempt to procure weapons that Nelson was involved in failed (big shock when there was agent involved), the weapons shipment that successfully made it in from Lebanon did not involve Nelson.

If the security forces were involved in the plan to bring those weapons in, and wanted the Loyalists to have them, then why on earth did they did they seize most of them as soon as there was intelligence indicating where they were?

You desperately need to broaden your reading on NI, try including some things that aren't written by Provos, or Provo sympathisers.
They got half, didn't they only stop one Granada?
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
All civilians were innocent by definition. Those claimed as/by the paramilitaries probably less so - depending on the circumstances. As the law stood, and as it was well known to most soldiers, an unarmed paramilitary mingling in a crowd presenting no threat and on whom the soldier or policeman had no direct evidence, was as entitled to the full protection of the security forces as a month old baby.

Murals generally were a Unionist community artifact used before the troubles to celebrate the industrial heritage of communities. They were transformed because of the troubles and became symbols of perceived oppression and identity by both communities. Doubtless some are used to illustrate perceived injustice - inclusion on them would not be accepted as evidence of paramilitary membership per se.

The only civilian that I know of who was given the posthumous 'honour' of membership of the IRA was the guy who was accidentally shot by Billy McKee at St Mathews Church Short Strand in 1970. He was a friend of McKee who had come over to the East side to see if he could help.

Doubtless there are some errors of fact in the various analyses of the troubles - but in general terms the numbers are close enough to illustrate the larger picture. Also I would argue that when you look closer at what the numbers actually tell you, they reveal trends that are not easily apparent.

Time to understand and stop blaming. Constant repetition of a spurious fact isn't going to make it any more valid.

Didn't they attempt to blame Donaldson for that once he had been outed as a british agent?
 
Ah, i see what you mean.

Agree.

The flow chart goes UK Gov. Ddecides to offer Referendum. NI decides to have Referendum. Referendum says "unite". ROI Govt decides to have Referendum. ROI decides whether to take on the refreshingly exciting challenge.
So the Plan is to guilt trip the reluctant in the ROI?
 
They got half, didn't they only stop one Granada?
They got a couple of the UVF rifles in North Belfast a few years later.
 
They got half, didn't they only stop one Granada?
Almost all of it was found eventually. The UDA lost all of theirs when the cars were stopped, about half of the UVF's share was found in searches and everything Ulster Resistance had, bar what they gave to the UVF was eventually found.
 
They got a couple of the UVF rifles in North Belfast a few years later.
I thought it was a bit more than a couple of rifles, so I looked it up.

A RPG7 rocket launcher with 26 warheads, 38 assault rifles, 15 Brownings, 100 grenades and 40,000 rounds of ammunition were found following searches in the Upper Crumlin Road area of North Belfast.

That was about a month after the UDA had theirs taken on the motorway.
 
So the Plan is to guilt trip the reluctant in the ROI?

I'd be inclined to tell the cheeky feckers to stop even talking about it.

It's as if the English were whining about Normandy. Let it go, Irish guys, it was decided 800 years ago and all your mawkish horrible songs about half fictional heroes are bollocks.
 
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I thought it was a bit more than a couple of rifles, so I looked it up.

A RPG7 rocket launcher with 26 warheads, 38 assault rifles, 15 Brownings, 100 grenades and 40,000 rounds of ammunition were found following searches in the Upper Crumlin Road area of North Belfast.

That was about a month after the UDA had theirs taken on the motorway.
I never knew it was that much.
 
I thought it was a bit more than a couple of rifles, so I looked it up.

A RPG7 rocket launcher with 26 warheads, 38 assault rifles, 15 Brownings, 100 grenades and 40,000 rounds of ammunition were found following searches in the Upper Crumlin Road area of North Belfast.

That was about a month after the UDA had theirs taken on the motorway.
I knew Davy Payne and Co had been stopped with the car boot hitting the tarmac. I was always under the impression that the Ulster Resistance cache was still planked somewhere.
 
I knew Davy Payne and Co had been stopped with the car boot hitting the tarmac. I was always under the impression that the Ulster Resistance cache was still planked somewhere.
Difficult to know what could be left of the Ulster Resistance share. They gave stuff to the UVF years later some of which was found, some of which may have been involved in the decommissioning. Over the years Ulster Resistance have claimed they have stockpiles and have even said they brought more stuff in about 10 years ago but no-one really knows how much of that is true and how much is bluff.
 
Difficult to know what could be left of the Ulster Resistance share. They gave stuff to the UVF years later some of which was found, some of which may have been involved in the decommissioning. Over the years Ulster Resistance have claimed they have stockpiles and have even said they brought more stuff in about 10 years ago but no-one really knows how much of that is true and how much is bluff.
Anyone checked Paisleys grave.
 
Didn't they attempt to blame Donaldson for that once he had been outed as a british agent?
Not sure, I only came across it recently. Haven't heard the Donaldson angle before - though I don't know that much about him..............yet!
 

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