Could Republican and Loyalist terrorism be contained, if Sinn Fein pushed for unification?

Was it money in his case?
Or kiddy fiddling (allegedly the Scap situation)
Did he not say they got him at a weak point in his life?
Hope Jimmy McCurrie and Robert McNeill kicked the fcuk out off him, if there's such a thing as the pearly gates
 
really?
if believing that helps you sleep soundly in your little orange Jim jams
Don't wear jammies..I go Red Hand Commando
 
QUOTE="Filthy_contract, post: 9846958, member: 166199"]
These diversions are interesting however, I wonder if we can return to an earlier question or three?

Could UK security forces contain widespread unrest again in NI?

[/QUOTE]

No

QUOTE="Filthy_contract, post: 9846958, member: 166199"]
What would be the role of the British Army this time?

[/QUOTE]

None - it would be an EU mission, and their Constabularies and armies don’t play nice

QUOTE="Filthy_contract, post: 9846958, member: 166199"]
Is the corporate memory there from 25 years ago, or would the army have to relearn very painful lessons?

[/QUOTE]

See above
 
QUOTE="Filthy_contract, post: 9846958, member: 166199"]
These diversions are interesting however, I wonder if we can return to an earlier question or three?

Could UK security forces contain widespread unrest again in NI?
No

QUOTE="Filthy_contract, post: 9846958, member: 166199"]
What would be the role of the British Army this time?

[/QUOTE]

None - it would be an EU mission, and their Constabularies and armies don’t play nice

QUOTE="Filthy_contract, post: 9846958, member: 166199"]
Is the corporate memory there from 25 years ago, or would the army have to relearn very painful lessons?

[/QUOTE]

See above
[/QUOTE]
Would you be able to expand your replies? Why do you think it would be a EUFOR matter (especially given that GB & NI are outwith the EU)? I would have thought that it would be a huge political own goal for Westminster to agree to a EUFOR to deploy in Ulster.

My experience of EU forces on missions is that they are very, very risk averse with de-escalatory ROE; in national context (or operating under national ROE) Gendarmeries (eg Caribinierie, Guardia Civil, Gendarmes, Jandarma) can be very effective,
 
One question that has not been raised. Presumably there would be a referendum on unification.
Who would get to vote?
In Scotland they had to get a temporary transfer of power from Westminster and then only people living in Scotland could vote. How would that work in the RoI or Stormont?
Can you imagine if the north couldn't vote?
What about the 1000's of Bugsys in the world, who have barely set foot on their beloved Emerald Isle in decades, but still claim to be Oirish!
 
One question that has not been raised. Presumably there would be a referendum on unification.
Who would get to vote?
In Scotland they had to get a temporary transfer of power from Westminster and then only people living in Scotland could vote. How would that work in the RoI or Stormont?
Can you imagine if the north couldn't vote?
What about the 1000's of Bugsys in the world, who have barely set foot on their beloved Emerald Isle in decades, but still claim to be Oirish!
I seen someone ask a question before. What would happen if Unionists in NI boycotted the referendum.

I think that would open a can of worms trying force through a United Ireland when the majority of the population showed they didn't even want the vote in the first place.
 
One question that has not been raised. Presumably there would be a referendum on unification.
Who would get to vote?
In Scotland they had to get a temporary transfer of power from Westminster and then only people living in Scotland could vote. How would that work in the RoI or Stormont?
Can you imagine if the north couldn't vote?
What about the 1000's of Bugsys in the world, who have barely set foot on their beloved Emerald Isle in decades, but still claim to be Oirish!
  • Voters would have to be living on the island.
  • There would be proportional representation from NI and the Republic (ie pro-rata weighting of results based on the relative population sizes).
  • Would it be a binary choice (ie unification or status quo), or more nuanced proposing different future operating models for NI? I think one thing that the Brexit referendum has shown us (on either side of the debate) that Yes/No options can be surprisingly ambiguous.
 
2. It's not up to the ROI, it's up to the people of NI.
The disagrees for this

I agree with you in as much as its up to NI to decide if they want unification with the south however whether it happens or not is very much up to them.

Just because NI votes to leave the UK and join the South doesn't mean the Souths obliged to let them -

It does of course beg the question what happens if the should we join the south receives an overwhelming yes but the south** says yeah we dont want you -
Status quo - that's going to be seen by some as colonialism -
Cut them loose as an independent nation - I cant see that going well


**One hopes the ROIs view would be established before any such question was posed - to prevent just that scenario
 
Are the Unionists still in the majority in NI?
Yeah, quite comfortably I believe.

I've never went in for Protestant v Catholic as the benchmark for the demographics, on the constitutional question in NI, but there's still more Protestants than Catholics and 90 odd per cent of Protestants would categorise themselves as Unionist.
Theres quite a big minority of Catholics who would also be Unionist for one reason or the other.
 
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I read it twice to see where riding horses while wearing pillowcases (with eyesockets cut out) over their heads, burning/whipping people, tying them to the back bumpers of vehicles and towing them around fitted into Ulster – nope.
Interesting that you mention bowler hats and sashespillowcases. Although perhaps you missed the link I made to Billy McCaughey (late of the B Specials and then RUC SPG); you might enjoy this quote from him:

"Our colour code was Orange and it was Orange by nature and several of us were paramilitaries. Our proud boast was that we would never have a Catholic in it. We did actually have a Catholic once, a guy called Danny from Dungannon. The day after he joined we had him dangling out from the back of a Land Rover with his chin inches from the road. He lasted a week"

As for the burnings and whippings, I agree that those and the words to "Croppies Lie Down" came before the 20th century - but would you agree that "The Billy Boys" is definitely 20th Century, and makes it very clear as to the thinking of the Orangeman who sings it? Or are you going to suggest that enthusiastically singing about being "up to our necks in Fenian blood" is merely cultural, and in no way reflects aggression towards the Catholic community?

You might want to ask what Gusty Spence was up to in the mid 1960s... and why the UVF was declared illegal in 1966.
 
It's got in before, it'll get in, in future.
The only times the loyalists ever got any substantial supplies of weaponry in was with the connivance, acquiescence or assistance of the British state.

In the scenario we are talking about this would not be an option.

A hundred 40-year-old VZ 58s (if they still even function by this stage) and the accompanying rusty ammo isn't going to cut the mustard on Doomsday.
 
The only times the loyalists ever got any substantial supplies of weaponry in was with the connivance, acquiescence or assistance of the British state.

In the scenario we are talking about this would not be an option.

A hundred 40-year-old VZ 58s (if they still even function by this stage) and the accompanying rusty ammo isn't going to cut the mustard on Doomsday.
I love how Republicans are these savant genius beings who could build nuclear warheads if they had the material.

Yet Loyalists needed the hand of the state to function.
 
Interesting that you mention bowler hats and sashespillowcases. Although perhaps you missed the link I made to Billy McCaughey (late of the B Specials and then RUC SPG); you might enjoy this quote from him:

"Our colour code was Orange and it was Orange by nature and several of us were paramilitaries. Our proud boast was that we would never have a Catholic in it. We did actually have a Catholic once, a guy called Danny from Dungannon. The day after he joined we had him dangling out from the back of a Land Rover with his chin inches from the road. He lasted a week"

As for the burnings and whippings, I agree that those and the words to "Croppies Lie Down" came before the 20th century - but would you agree that "The Billy Boys" is definitely 20th Century, and makes it very clear as to the thinking of the Orangeman who sings it? Or are you going to suggest that enthusiastically singing about being "up to our necks in Fenian blood" is merely cultural, and in no way reflects aggression towards the Catholic community?

You might want to ask what Gusty Spence was up to in the mid 1960s... and why the UVF was declared illegal in 1966.
It's widely known the UVF was reformed in the 1960's due to a fear of a resurgence of Republican violence on the 50th anniversary of the Easter Rising..especially after the IRA border campaign, the decade before hand.
 
Interesting that you mention bowler hats and sashespillowcases. Although perhaps you missed the link I made to Billy McCaughey (late of the B Specials and then RUC SPG); you might enjoy this quote from him:

"Our colour code was Orange and it was Orange by nature and several of us were paramilitaries. Our proud boast was that we would never have a Catholic in it. We did actually have a Catholic once, a guy called Danny from Dungannon. The day after he joined we had him dangling out from the back of a Land Rover with his chin inches from the road. He lasted a week"

As for the burnings and whippings, I agree that those and the words to "Croppies Lie Down" came before the 20th century - but would you agree that "The Billy Boys" is definitely 20th Century, and makes it very clear as to the thinking of the Orangeman who sings it? Or are you going to suggest that enthusiastically singing about being "up to our necks in Fenian blood" is merely cultural, and in no way reflects aggression towards the Catholic community?

You might want to ask what Gusty Spence was up to in the mid 1960s... and why the UVF was declared illegal in 1966.
Turning back only 25 years ago, when I got engaged, some of my father's aunts sniffed (then in their late 80s) that my fiancee had a 'catholic-sounding name' and 'think of the shame'. When I was younger, they regaled stories of throwing stones through the window of the local catholic church, taunting Catholic children, along with 'how Catholics were dirty and looked different' - and this was in Yorkshire. Actually my wife is posh and High Church.
 
I love how Republicans are these savant genius beings who could build nuclear warheads if they had the material.

Yet Loyalists needed the hand of the state to function.
If you think those shaven-headed, mouth-breathing, tattooed, crystal meth popping, steroid pumping, knuckle dragging, drum thumping, Tina Turner fans were able to contact the South African secret service, arrange payment and shipment of weapons, then drive in and out again of Republican areas unmolested by any security force personnel, to target very specific high-value individuals and their families all on their own and without help from rather shady characters in the British state then you weren't paying very close attention to what was really going on.

These were individuals whose highest form of military operation previously was "romper rooming" misfortunate individuals they abducted off the street at random and dragged to the back rooms of illegal shebeens.

Then suddenly they were having high level contacts with overseas intelligence agencies and stiffing serious Provo operators in remarkably smooth and well-planned assassinations.

Yeah, the FRU, "simply the best" as Brian Nelson could confirm.
 
If you think those shaven-headed, mouth-breathing, tattooed, crystal meth popping, steroid pumping, knuckle dragging, drum thumping, Tina Turner fans were able to contact the South African secret service, arrange payment and shipment of weapons, then drive in and out again of Republican areas unmolested by any security force personnel, to target very specific high-value individuals and their families all on their own and without help from rather shady characters in the British state then you weren't paying very close attention to what was really going on.

These were individuals whose highest form of military operation previously was "romper rooming" misfortunate individuals they abducted off the street at random and dragged to the back rooms of illegal shebeens.

Then suddenly they were having high level contacts with overseas intelligence agencies and stiffing serious Provo operators in remarkably smooth and well-planned assassinations.

Yeah, the FRU, "simply the best" as Brian Nelson could confirm.
Yeah but Republicans were able to head of to sunnier climes, negotiate with a foreign state, import large amounts of weapons, move unaided around Loyalist area's and take out high ranking Loyalists, without the help of the state

Ohh thats right Republicans were amazing and Loyalists thick knuckledraggers, who needed their hands held by the state.
 
If you think those shaven-headed, mouth-breathing, tattooed, crystal meth popping, steroid pumping, knuckle dragging, drum thumping, Tina Turner fans were able to contact the South African secret service, arrange payment and shipment of weapons, then drive in and out again of Republican areas unmolested by any security force personnel, to target very specific high-value individuals and their families all on their own and without help from rather shady characters in the British state then you weren't paying very close attention to what was really going on.

These were individuals whose highest form of military operation previously was "romper rooming" misfortunate individuals they abducted off the street at random and dragged to the back rooms of illegal shebeens.

Then suddenly they were having high level contacts with overseas intelligence agencies and stiffing serious Provo operators in remarkably smooth and well-planned assassinations.

Yeah, the FRU, "simply the best" as Brian Nelson could confirm.
The attempt to procure weapons that Nelson was involved in failed (big shock when there was agent involved), the weapons shipment that successfully made it in from Lebanon did not involve Nelson.

If the security forces were involved in the plan to bring those weapons in, and wanted the Loyalists to have them, then why on earth did they did they seize most of them as soon as there was intelligence indicating where they were?

You desperately need to broaden your reading on NI, try including some things that aren't written by Provos, or Provo sympathisers.
 
The attempt to procure weapons that Nelson was involved in failed (big shock when there was agent involved), the weapons shipment that successfully made it in from Lebanon did not involve Nelson.

If the security forces were involved in the plan to bring those weapons in, and wanted the Loyalists to have them, then why on earth did they did they seize most of them as soon as there was intelligence indicating where they were?

You desperately need to broaden your reading on NI, try including some things that aren't written by Provos, or Provo sympathisers.
I love how they claim Nelson was the source of all the intel provided to Loyalists.

The biggest intelligence coup for the UVF was the IRA supergrass trials.
 

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