could our immigration service be this hopeless?

#1
homeoffice letter refusing an ivory coast Asylum seeker


"You claim that you could not relocate to the area where your parents
are living as you fear attacks from guerrillas. However, information
from the World Wide Fund for nature confirms that guerrillas (sic) are
not native to that part of the country and in any event there are few
recorded incidents of primates attacking humans unless their natural
habitat is disturbed or their young threatened".

they could'nt be this stupid surely :?
 
#2
My first instinct was to call wah as well, but then I thought back to various dealings I've had with the incompetent cnuts we employ as ECOs and realised that it could easily be true.

I've had a Canadian student name of McGuire who was coming to study a Masters in English Literature refused a student visa because she hadn't supplied proof of English proficiency. They. Are. Shocking.
 
#3
smartascarrots said:
My first instinct was to call wah as well, but then I thought back to various dealings I've had with the incompetent cnuts we employ as ECOs and realised that it could easily be true.

I've had a Canadian student name of McGuire who was coming to study a Masters in English Literature refused a student visa because she hadn't supplied proof of English proficiency. They. Are. Shocking.
Think Jarrod called wah in the fact it's a blatantly stupid and obvious question, rather than it being a wind up 8O
 
#4
smartascarrots said:
My first instinct was to call wah as well, but then I thought back to various dealings I've had with the incompetent cnuts we employ as ECOs and realised that it could easily be true.

I've had a Canadian student name of McGuire who was coming to study a Masters in English Literature refused a student visa because she hadn't supplied proof of English proficiency. They. Are. Shocking.
I've no dramas with that... how many false unis and similar are about, or maybe she just got on the course and would 'drop out' of both Uni and sight of our immigration services.

Besides... she could be francophile :D
 
#5
Francophone.

I wouldn't take any foreign holidays chocolate frog...re-entering UK could be problematic!
 
#6
Cuddles said:
Francophone.

I wouldn't take any foreign holidays chocolate frog...re-entering UK could be problematic!
:D

Could have sworn they said phile.... do postings count for re-entering?
 
#7
brighton hippy said:
"You claim that you could not relocate to the area where your parents
are living as you fear attacks from guerrillas. However, information
from the World Wide Fund for nature confirms that guerrillas (sic) are
not native to that part of the country and in any event there are few
recorded incidents of primates attacking humans unless their natural
habitat is disturbed or their young threatened".
I took it as a rare bit of humour on the part of some junior civil servant.

Full marks for imaginative grounds for refusal. Makes a change from letting any bugger stay for the most spurious of reasons.
 
#8
chocolate_frog said:
I've no dramas with that... how many false unis and similar are about, or maybe she just got on the course and would 'drop out' of both Uni and sight of our immigration services.
In the first place, we're hardly a false University - unless we've managed to successfully bluff our way for more centuries than the UK has been in existence.

In the second, this is a Postgraduate qualification in English Literature and a command of the language is ordinarily thought to be a handy thing to have when dissecting what a person meant in their writings even at secondary level.

In the third, she's a Canadian and that's not exactly a high-threat country requiring extra-extra-super-dooper precautions. Nor is her family background indicative of anything other than an Anglophone education. It might even get her the right of abode under an Ancestry Visa should she be so minded.

In the fourth, her UG degree was from an English-medium Canadian university - we can reasonably assume they teach in English to a respectable standard, can we not?

In the fifth, insisting on a language test for a native English-speaker is both bone, unnecessary and makes the UK look ridiculous.

In the sixth, asking for an English language test is going to make no difference whatsoever to her likelihood of disappearing off the immigration radar but will make a significant difference to the chances of her fucking off to a country that isn't run by idiots.

In the seventh place, under the PBS guidelines it isn't up to the Entry Clearance Officer to judge the likelihood of a student not completing their studies; that's what Compliance Monitoring by the institution is for.

It was a shite call made by a moron.

Education and Skills is one of the precious, dwindling few export sectors the UK still has that is genuinely world-beating and it contributes a massive amount to the UK economy directly and an even more humungous amount indirectly. International students alone contribute around £2.50 to the wider economy for every pound spent directly on fees. And semi-trained ersatz-chimps like this are on the verge of throwing it out the window because they can't be arrsed firing up two braincells in rapid succession.

If they can't spot something as simple as there being no need for a born-and-bred Canadian to take an IELTS, what chance do they have of spotting a genuine bad guy?
 
#9
After the story of the immigration officers singing "Umbongo, Umbongo, they kill them in to Congo" & making the victims of inter-tribal genocide act out killings nothing would surprise me...
 
#10
smartascarrots said:
chocolate_frog said:
I've no dramas with that... how many false unis and similar are about, or maybe she just got on the course and would 'drop out' of both Uni and sight of our immigration services.
In the first place, we're hardly a false University - unless we've managed to successfully bluff our way for more centuries than the UK has been in existence.

In the second, this is a Postgraduate qualification in English Literature and a command of the language is ordinarily thought to be a handy thing to have when dissecting what a person meant in their writings even at secondary level.

In the third, she's a Canadian and that's not exactly a high-threat country requiring extra-extra-super-dooper precautions. Nor is her family background indicative of anything other than an Anglophone education. It might even get her the right of abode under an Ancestry Visa should she be so minded.

In the fourth, her UG degree was from an English-medium Canadian university - we can reasonably assume they teach in English to a respectable standard, can we not?

In the fifth, insisting on a language test for a native English-speaker is both bone, unnecessary and makes the UK look ridiculous.

In the sixth, asking for an English language test is going to make no difference whatsoever to her likelihood of disappearing off the immigration radar but will make a significant difference to the chances of her fucking off to a country that isn't run by idiots.

In the seventh place, under the PBS guidelines it isn't up to the Entry Clearance Officer to judge the likelihood of a student not completing their studies; that's what Compliance Monitoring by the institution is for.

It was a shite call made by a moron.

Education and Skills is one of the precious, dwindling few export sectors the UK still has that is genuinely world-beating and it contributes a massive amount to the UK economy directly and an even more humungous amount indirectly. International students alone contribute around £2.50 to the wider economy for every pound spent directly on fees. And semi-trained ersatz-chimps like this are on the verge of throwing it out the window because they can't be arrsed firing up two braincells in rapid succession.

If they can't spot something as simple as there being no need for a born-and-bred Canadian to take an IELTS, what chance do they have of spotting a genuine bad guy?
Is she fit?
 
#11
smartas, I can see your points. And I can sympathise... however, when we even have Americans popping over for a bit of healthcare tourism, where do we draw the line?

Saying your Uni is old hardly gives it the right to decide who can come in to our country and study.

And if she was such a good student of English, surely she'd have read the form and provided the neccesary paperwork.

Our immigration barriers seem to be pretty porus at teh best of times, so surely a robust, uniform approach is the way ahead.

vvaannmmaann, surely the question should be... "does she put out?"
 
#12
smartascarrots said:
In the seventh place, under the PBS guidelines it isn't up to the Entry Clearance Officer to judge the likelihood of a student not completing their studies; that's what Compliance Monitoring by the institution is for.quote]

Feck me, I know I had a good weekend on the piss but I cannot remember issuing immigration guidelines nor did I know I was that important that I could!
 

Command_doh

LE
Book Reviewer
#13
smartascarrots said:
My first instinct was to call wah as well, but then I thought back to various dealings I've had with the incompetent cnuts we employ as ECOs and realised that it could easily be true.

I've had a Canadian student name of McGuire who was coming to study a Masters in English Literature refused a student visa because she hadn't supplied proof of English proficiency. They. Are. Shocking.
Juxtapose this statement with

In the seventh place, under the PBS guidelines it isn't up to the Entry Clearance Officer to judge the likelihood of a student not completing their studies; that's what Compliance Monitoring by the institution is for.
If they can't now judge credibility because the decision making process is taken out of their hands and has been replaced by a box ticking exercise installed by senior civil servants at the behest of Ministers, how are they morons?

In the third, she's a Canadian and that's not exactly a high-threat country requiring extra-extra-super-dooper precautions. Nor is her family background indicative of anything other than an Anglophone education. It might even get her the right of abode under an Ancestry Visa should she be so minded.
Not really an informed statement here. On more than one count. well off the mark in fact. You clearly aren't aware of the significant number of North American's who come here daily seeking jobs then? Or free health care?

And you are aware of the fact that and ancestral visa and a right of abode are completely different things and are in no way compatible?

In the fifth, insisting on a language test for a native English-speaker is both bone, unnecessary and makes the UK look ridiculous.
Not really, when you have Commonwealth countries who are designated as being English speakers not being able to speak or read English. Very frequent occurrence this.

Whilst PBS in relation to education is pretty obviously failing, one of the most troubling areas of it placing trust in Educational establishments to issue 'guarantee letters'. In essence, it confers almost the power to issue a visa to people who have their bank balances, profit margins and pension plans firmly in their interest as opposed to the countries. As we speak, hundreds and hundreds of ostensibly credible educational institutions are being monitored to see how closely they ensure the students they dish out offer letters to actually have any intention of turning up on their courses.

I understand there is a very 'laid back attitude' in College/University/Higher educational establishments when they are challenged over the ration of genuine to bogus students. Removing their 'trusted partner' status hasn't yet proved a deterrent for a lot I understand.
 
#14
chocolate_frog said:
And if she was such a good student of English, surely she'd have read the form and provided the neccesary paperwork.
You're missing the point: it was NOT required paperwork in her case, for the reasons I laid out. It was merely asked for by some clown on a power trip who didn't even know his own job.

It's not an isolated incident either. From the BUILA forum, I've read of an ECO refusing a student on the grounds that they didn't have sufficient funds in their bank account for studies, even though they could prove they were in receipt of an all-expenses paid scholarship from the FCO; a student who pointed out that he shouldn't have been refused for lacking ATAS clearance because his subject was explicitly mentioned on the FCO website as not needing ATAS clearance - then being told to go and get a letter from the FCO certifying that he didn't need it despite the self-same website saying that the FCO would not provide confirmation in the negative; from my own personal experience, a student was refused because although their parents were wealthy businesspeople holding more than adequate funds for more than long enough to qualify, the ECO did not believe they were going to use it for their child's education. Apart from the question of how the Hell do they prove that?, there's the question of how the Hell could he possibly have come to that conclusion in the 30 seconds on the interview?

I don't have a problem with strict rules because they help me in my job. I like knowing exactly where I stand. I do have a major problem with badly-trained, inexperienced and out-and-out idiotic people making shit up as they go along.
 
#15
My local Uni imports Chinese students by the hundreds. They arrive 3 months early and attend English classes all through the summer, seems to work. I think they should apply the must have adequate English skills to our own students, few of them seem to attain adequate levels of competency from my experience.
 
#16
Command_doh said:
If they can't now judge credibility because the decision making process is taken out of their hands and has been replaced by a box ticking exercise installed by senior civil servants at the behest of Ministers, how are they morons?
Where did I say it’s a box-ticking exercise? There are certain things that are within their competency to judge and certain things that aren’t. They’re not allowed, for example, to second-guess a university’s admissions policy and refuse a visa because they don’t believe the student is qualified. And they’re not supposed to ask for proof of English proficiency from a national of a majority English speaking country. But this cunt didn’t seem to know that and wouldn’t back down when the rules he was actually supposed to be applying were pointed out.


Command_doh said:
Not really an informed statement here. On more than one count. well off the mark in fact. You clearly aren't aware of the significant number of North American's who come here daily seeking jobs then? Or free health care?
Informed by experience. Of actually dealing with ECOs and Immigration Officers, I might add. You’re clearly unaware that Health Tourism isn’t an issue for the overwhelming majority of students as they’re covered by the NHS anyway for the duration of their studies. Funding that is one of the reasons why their fees are so high.

Command_doh said:
And you are aware of the fact that and ancestral visa and a right of abode are completely different things and are in no way compatible?
For the intent and purpose of studies, they most certainly are. The test for practical purposes is whether the student could legitimately study a full degree programme by attendance part time. On an ancestor visa, she could have.

Command_doh said:
Not really, when you have Commonwealth countries who are designated as being English speakers not being able to speak or read English. Very frequent occurrence this.
I refer you to the rules linked to earlier. He wasn’t supposed to ask a Canadian national for proof of English proficiency and a few seconds’ thought about her specific case would have shown how ridiculous it was to do so.

Command_doh said:
Whilst PBS in relation to education is pretty obviously failing, one of the most troubling areas of it placing trust in Educational establishments to issue 'guarantee letters'.
No it bloody doesn’t. Take your head for a walk. The responsibility and authority still lie solely with the Border Agency. And if you have anything to do with BA then presumably you’d realise that the letters C, A and S rather than ‘guarantee letters’ – what the fuck are they, by the way? – are the overriding document now.

Command_doh said:
In essence, it confers almost the power to issue a visa to people who have their bank balances, profit margins and pension plans firmly in their interest as opposed to the countries.
What, and the UKBA isn’t stroking itself at the thought of being able to report to the Daily Mail a drop in the number if visas issued, regardless of what category or reason? Take the Bacofoil off, why don't you.

Command_doh said:
As we speak, hundreds and hundreds of ostensibly credible educational institutions are being monitored to see how closely they ensure the students they dish out offer letters to actually have any intention of turning up on their courses.
Obviously not a long enough walk. NO, WE’RE NOT! The only institution that’s had its ‘trusted partner’ status revoked to date has been a US company called Kaplan International who operate partnership arrangements up and down the country and had their stand-alone college in London removed from the list.

UK institutions are not monitored for anything other than how well we report compliance. The student's intention to study is recognised as something that cannot be empirically assessed and isn’t – or at least according to the actual rules and not the made up ones, shouldn’t be – part of the process.

Command_doh said:
I understand there is a very 'laid back attitude' in College/University/Higher educational establishments when they are challenged over the ration of genuine to bogus students. Removing their 'trusted partner' status hasn't yet proved a deterrent for a lot I understand.
You understand wrongly. Not a single HEI has had its ‘trusted partner’ status revoked and most likely won’t. The main reason why I believe that is, since UKBA plainly don’t know how the rules should be applied, they’ll have a Hell of a time proving that anyone is in breach of them.
 

Command_doh

LE
Book Reviewer
#17
smartascarrots said:
Command_doh said:
If they can't now judge credibility because the decision making process is taken out of their hands and has been replaced by a box ticking exercise installed by senior civil servants at the behest of Ministers, how are they morons?
Where did I say it’s a box-ticking exercise? There are certain things that are within their competency to judge and certain things that aren’t. They’re not allowed, for example, to second-guess a university’s admissions policy and refuse a visa because they don’t believe the student is qualified. And they’re not supposed to ask for proof of English proficiency from a national of a majority English speaking country. But this cunt didn’t seem to know that and wouldn’t back down when the rules he was actually supposed to be applying were pointed out.


Command_doh said:
Not really an informed statement here. On more than one count. well off the mark in fact. You clearly aren't aware of the significant number of North American's who come here daily seeking jobs then? Or free health care?
Informed by experience. Of actually dealing with ECOs and Immigration Officers, I might add. You’re clearly unaware that Health Tourism isn’t an issue for the overwhelming majority of students as they’re covered by the NHS anyway for the duration of their studies. Funding that is one of the reasons why their fees are so high.

Command_doh said:
And you are aware of the fact that and ancestral visa and a right of abode are completely different things and are in no way compatible?
For the intent and purpose of studies, they most certainly are. The test for practical purposes is whether the student could legitimately study a full degree programme by attendance part time. On an ancestor visa, she could have.

Command_doh said:
Not really, when you have Commonwealth countries who are designated as being English speakers not being able to speak or read English. Very frequent occurrence this.
I refer you to the rules linked to earlier. He wasn’t supposed to ask a Canadian national for proof of English proficiency and a few seconds’ thought about her specific case would have shown how ridiculous it was to do so.

Command_doh said:
Whilst PBS in relation to education is pretty obviously failing, one of the most troubling areas of it placing trust in Educational establishments to issue 'guarantee letters'.
No it bloody doesn’t. Take your head for a walk. The responsibility and authority still lie solely with the Border Agency. And if you have anything to do with BA then presumably you’d realise that the letters C, A and S rather than ‘guarantee letters’ – what the fuck are they, by the way? – are the overriding document now.

Command_doh said:
In essence, it confers almost the power to issue a visa to people who have their bank balances, profit margins and pension plans firmly in their interest as opposed to the countries.
What, and the UKBA isn’t stroking itself at the thought of being able to report to the Daily Mail a drop in the number if visas issued, regardless of what category or reason? Take the Bacofoil off, why don't you.

Command_doh said:
As we speak, hundreds and hundreds of ostensibly credible educational institutions are being monitored to see how closely they ensure the students they dish out offer letters to actually have any intention of turning up on their courses.
Obviously not a long enough walk. NO, WE’RE NOT! The only institution that’s had its ‘trusted partner’ status revoked to date has been a US company called Kaplan International who operate partnership arrangements up and down the country and had their stand-alone college in London removed from the list.

UK institutions are not monitored for anything other than how well we report compliance. The student's intention to study is recognised as something that cannot be empirically assessed and isn’t – or at least according to the actual rules and not the made up ones, shouldn’t be – part of the process.

Command_doh said:
I understand there is a very 'laid back attitude' in College/University/Higher educational establishments when they are challenged over the ration of genuine to bogus students. Removing their 'trusted partner' status hasn't yet proved a deterrent for a lot I understand.
You understand wrongly. Not a single HEI has had its ‘trusted partner’ status revoked and most likely won’t. The main reason why I believe that is, since UKBA plainly don’t know how the rules should be applied, they’ll have a Hell of a time proving that anyone is in breach of them.
You are taking this all rather personally aren't you chum? Personally involved in anything by any chance? ;) I like the way you are doing a lot of spouting and actually abusing people in Embassy's without appreciating that PBS IS actually an 'open door' policy. I would refer you to Andrew Neathers' statements on the issue of 'changing the face of the British voting public'.

Anyway, somewhere along the line you have had a bit of a cry, so thats nice. And CAS's are correct, yes. But when did they come in? Oh, about 5 seconds ago, thats when. And just because someone has a certificate of acceptance, it doesn't automatically follow that they have any intention of following their studies. In a significant number of cases, a deposit is paid and thats the last a college or institution will hear of the individual. Many will use the entry clearance as a means to an end to facilitate entry. And anyway, you may realise that some people other than your good self are reading this and don't have the benefit of 'jargon', so simplification sometimes helps. I would like to stay away from 'insider acronyms'.

Don't put words into my mouth about 'revoking'. I said 'monitored'. There are shed loads, and you know it.

Now really, you should learn to either control your blood pressure, or stay away from the keyboard. You obviously know that UKBA/Embassy's and High Commissions are inundated with student applications since PBS was introduced. You will be keenly aware that people from whole regions of 'risk' countries have been effectively banned from applying for student visa on the basis of identified mass fraud and facilitation going on.

I can't be bothered to talk to you about the difference between legitimate Colleges and 'duff' schools. You clearly are well informed in your tiny little area of expertise that relates specifically to your sector, but I'm sure you realise that ECO's and UKBA have far more to deal with than this one specific thing.

This is clearly a waste of time. You seem intent on using as many expletives, weasel words and derogatory comments as possible about these Civil Servants in as little a space as is humanly possible. Crack on chump. I can't be bothered with you. I was speaking in layman's terms, but you are obviously stroking yourself at your vast 'expertise' in your nice little area. Great. Bully for you. I would talk to you at length and quote paragraphs, subsections and case history, but there is really no point. You just want to abuse people.
 
#18
Why is the FCO paying student fees? What do we get out of that deal? Genuine Question.
 
#19
A vote
 
#20
chocolate_frog said:
Why is the FCO paying student fees? What do we get out of that deal? Genuine Question.
Chevening and Commonwealth Scholarships, mainly. We give the future national and business leaders of the developing world a British education and send 'em back home with a positive impression of Britain.

It's also a great way to ensure that they don't go to the competition, thereby denying them the benefits of the world's best brains.
 

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