COs Orders

#1
Hi. I was in front of my SSM this morning regarding a fire alarm that went off last tuesday (Valentines day). It was me that set it off, but it was accidental, i put my hand on top of the red casing as when i lost my balance. I'm in Phase 2 Training at the moment, so I reported this to the gaurdroom immediately after it happened. When I went in front of my SSM today, he read out a statement from another PTE which says i was making "irradicate hand gestures" which isnt true but that PTE is no longer here. Im going to be put up for CO's orders and probably charged. Im currently on a 3 month oral warning for under age drinking, and the Troop Sergeant has said anyone who gets into any trouble whilst on one, will be discharged. Is there anything I can do?
 

oldbaldy

LE
Moderator
#3
shortfuse said:
Iron your best kit and practice marching quickly........

very quickly........


Hope this helps

Aunty shortfuse.
Without a hat.
 
#4
Well yeah, I know that. But am i likely to get charged for tampering with the fire alarm? There is one witness statement against my word and he isnt even here anymore and another witness has written a statement which backs my story up. If i do go in front of the CO, i will just apeal against his charge. If i'd done it on purpose and started punching it then fair enough, but the glass on the alarm has not been damaged so really it shouldnt have gone off unless it was already faulty. Does this sound like valid grounds to apeal or am i likely to get chargedthe maximum?
 
#5
If you are determined to stay in then you need to have a bit of determination on this one. You are entitled to have the private in question cross examined. If his statement is false as you claim, the unit is breaking the law by using it and you can complain to the Data Protection Commissionaire that you are being disciplined on the grounds of false or innacurate data. The fact that you reported the incident to the Guard room is in your favour, I take it the incident was recorded in the occurence book?

Even if you were farting around and accidentaly set the thing off, it should hardly cost you your job, if they discharged every squaddie who had drunk under age we would hardly have an army.

If you are a scrote who is constantly in trouble then I have little sympathy and the army is well shot of you, however, if you are a decent lad who had just got some Knob SSM on your case, then stand your ground, state that it was an accident, that you will pay for any costs incurred if necessary but do NOT accept any charge. Opt for Courts Martial if necessary and watch them bottle it. No doubt they will attempt to make your life a living hell afterwards in which case use the complaints process all the way up to the defence council if necessary. You will be suprised at how cowardly certain individuals are when having to answer for their actions officially.

Under no circumstances accept or admit any charge if you are innocent.
 
#6
First of all, do you have an officer to advise you? If not approach your section commander to get the wheels in motion to get one.

To prove the case they will at least need a witness statement. If they have one you can ask that they produce the witness in person - if as you say he has left the Army they cannot compel him to attend. Without the witness there is no case against you.

It sounds as if you have been sailing a tad close to the wind - if I was you once you get this out of the way I would knuckle down and gain a reputation for being a good soldier rather than a pain in the arrse.
 
#7
Neil88 said:
Hi. I was in front of my SSM this morning regarding a fire alarm that went off last tuesday (Valentines day). It was me that set it off, but it was accidental, i put my hand on top of the red casing as when i lost my balance. I'm in Phase 2 Training at the moment, so I reported this to the gaurdroom immediately after it happened. When I went in front of my SSM today, he read out a statement from another PTE which says i was making "irradicate hand gestures" which isnt true but that PTE is no longer here. Im going to be put up for CO's orders and probably charged. Im currently on a 3 month oral warning for under age drinking, and the Troop Sergeant has said anyone who gets into any trouble whilst on one, will be discharged. Is there anything I can do?
ir`rad´i`cate (ĭr`răd´ĭ`kāt)
v. t. 1. To root deeply.

Are you sure that is what he said?

.. and this Pte said that you were making deeply rooted hand gestures?? Or were you sh*gging the thing??
 

oldbaldy

LE
Moderator
#8
Warrior_Poet said:
If you are determined to stay in then you need to have a bit of determination on this one. You are entitled to have the private in question cross examined. If his statement is false as you claim, the unit is breaking the law by using it and you can complain to the Data Protection Commissionaire that you are being disciplined on the grounds of false or innacurate data. The fact that you reported the incident to the Guard room is in your favour, I take it the incident was recorded in the occurence book?

Even if you were farting around and accidentaly set the thing off, it should hardly cost you your job, if they discharged every squaddie who had drunk under age we would hardly have an army.

If you are a scrote who is constantly in trouble then I have little sympathy and the army is well shot of you, however, if you are a decent lad who had just got some Knob SSM on your case, then stand your ground, state that it was an accident, that you will pay for any costs incurred if necessary but do NOT accept any charge. Opt for Courts Martial if necessary and watch them bottle it. No doubt they will attempt to make your life a living hell afterwards in which case use the complaints process all the way up to the defence council if necessary. You will be suprised at how cowardly certain individuals are when having to answer for their actions officially.

Under no circumstances accept or admit any charge if you are innocent.
Good to know the Information Commissioner is now looking into perjury!
Or is it the Corps of Commisionaires?

Do they know about it?

My italics
 
#9
I'm not in trouble constantly, just the under age drinking thing was something that I did and excepted my ROP's and fine for. Its not the biggest crime in the world. I just dont want to be seen as a time waster who's always in the shit. Our squadron has apolicy where anyone on OC's orders gets put on a 3 month oral warning and anyone on a oral warning who gets into further trouble gets discharged. Which is what i'm concerned about. I still have a month on my warning from the drinking offence. What would happen if they had a statement that went against my word but then another one that backed me up? And what would happen if I took it to court marshall? What happens there?

Thank for the advice
 
#10
The Data Protection Act is clear, The MOD has a legal obligation not to process or hold any data that is false or inaccurate. as the accuracy of the data concerned is clearly in question, the unit is breaking the law by using it in an attempt to discipline the soldier especially as the soldier who wrote it seems to have disappeared. It is the units responsibility to ensure the statement is accurate by proper investigation. The soldier has a right to complain in this case.
 
#11
He hasn't dissapeared, just gone over to Leconfield to get his driving out of the way. If it comes down to my word against his, then what will happen?
 
#12
Find out who your welfare officer is and go and see them. They will stay totally impartial but will give you all the advice and help you want. I believe you are entitled to representation to help you put your case over, so find an officer who you have faith in (a rare quality I know) or ask the welfare officer for guidance. if you troop Sgt is any good, and he / she should be, they should help to point you in the right direction towards welfare services.
 

oldbaldy

LE
Moderator
#13
Neil88 said:
He hasn't dissapeared, just gone over to Leconfield to get his driving out of the way. If it comes down to my word against his, then what will happen?
Demand he appears in person for cross examination.

Are you not getting any advice from your Troop Cammander?
 
#14
Firstly. Calm down

Secondly. When you go on CO's be very polite and apologise for your actions.

Thirdly. Don't listen to too many barrack room lawyers, the same people that are very quick to advise you to fight the system are generally the people who wouldn't dare.

I'm sure that your SSM wouldn't take this forward if there was even a remote chance that your version of events carried any weight.

I have heard the "sorry I fell on the alarm" excuse twice and i even tried to use it once.

Take it on the chin and in future don't pish about with fire alarms. The day the army discharges someone for setting a fire alarm off will be a cold day in hell.
 

oldbaldy

LE
Moderator
#15
floppyjocky said:
e.
The day the army discharges someone for setting a fire alarm off will be a cold day in hell.
My mother still tells the story of setting of the alarm at RAF Lossiemouth when they found out Corporal Hitler had gone.
 
#16
If you are innocent then stand your ground, you are the one that knows the true circumstances, why did the other guy write the statement? was he put up to it by someone who has it in for you for instance. If people are abusing their rank and position to screw you over, do not trust the system to help you, the system will protect the perpetrator.

As i've said before, if you are a scrote then tough, live with the consequences of your actions, if you are a decent soldier and really want a career then stand up for yourself and use all the legal weapons at your disposal. It seems to me, this incident could have and should have been dealt with at a very low level. The fact that its going to the CO says something about the lack of leadership and ability of your SSM. Can he not deal with minor disciplinary infractions without hiding behind the CO?

Not being fully aware of all the circumstances I cannot make an objective judgement but something smells a bit fishy about the whole thing to me.
 
#17
Thanks for the advice. Aparently the PTE who wrote the statement against me was told to change his original one for whatever reason. A friend of mine who I told after the incident and who also accompanied me to the guard room had to change his statement too. There is my word against the statement but there was also another person in the room so i'll see why they didnt approach him for a statement too.

The glass on the fire alarm didnt break and the day after the incident they called people in to fix the fire alarm because it was going off for no apparent reason, but the fact that the admin here is up there arrse probably means there isnt a record of this. I also doubt my visit to the guardroom was put in the occurance book as the RP staff down there seemed to enthralled in his "News Of The World".
 
#20
Sounds like a legitimate thread to me having seen similar stitch ups myself.
If the soldiers were told what to write, the statements concerned are illegal and the individual who pressurised the soldiers concerned has committed a serious offence, far more serious than setting off a fire alarm. Get the guys who have made statements to write new statements including that they were pressurised in the first place and ensure that this is witnessed. If they insist on putting you in front of the CO, when you get the opportunity, tell your advising officer what has happened, show him a copy of the statements and let him deal with it. If the internal system doesn't work, submit a formal complaint against those responsible, they will Sh*t themselves, especially if you have witnesses and statements to back you up. Top Tip, get a dictaphone and record any conversations you have, you'd be suprised how easy it is to catch the lying B'stards out with this method.
 

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