Consent for sex

#1
According to the BBC News site, there is to be a campaign to make sure young men are aware that they have to get consent before engaging in sex with a woman.

They are also looking at changing the law to allow a jury to decide if a woman was too drunk to give consent or not, and allow a rape case to go ahead if they decide she wasn't.

This brings up a few points for me.

Do you have to carry around a form for the woman to sign before doing the deed? Not very romantic, but the only way I can think of to make sure you're back's covered legally.

But even if you do that, if the Jury decide that shhe had had a few drinks, your signed piece of paper doesn't stop you getting done for rape.

Why does being too drunk to know what you're doing as a woman mean you are not consenting, even if the man may also have been drinking, and that doesn't remove his responsibility to be clear thinking and make the right decision? So even if she's begging you for it, you are to go against nature and tell her no just in case she regrets it in the morning and you're up on a rape charge. Ugly people will never have sex again!

Rape is wrong. But it's also wrong for a man to get what can not be confused as anything else other than consent, only for her to change her mind, blame it on the drink and bring a rape charge. If they cannot look after themselves when they've had a few drinks, they shouldn't be drinking. If I get into a car and try to drive it, saying that I was too drunk to make a concious decision is no defence. Why should it be one for a woman? There's supposed to be sex equality, but it doesn't seem to be very equal.
 
#2
I agree with everything you're saying, P-P. The whole point of alcohol is that it lowers inhibitions and I'm sure that we've all done a few things under the influence of alcohol that we'd never do or at least seriously weigh up the pros and cons of when sober. I have very strong feelings about rape and a woman's right to say "No" BUT common sense has to play a part and sadly the way our state / society relationship has changed (I'm loath to use the word 'progressed') over the past 15 years, common sense in most aspects of life, at least with regard to legal interpretation, has been thrown away.

Plant-Pilot said:
Why does being too drunk to know what you're doing as a woman mean you are not consenting, even if the man may also have been drinking, and that doesn't remove his responsibility to be clear thinking and make the right decision? So even if she's begging you for it, you are to go against nature and tell her no just in case she regrets it in the morning and you're up on a rape charge.
Absolutely. How is an intoxicated man to know exactly how drunk a woman is and how is he able to support his judgement call if in the cold light of day the woman decides NOT to chalk HER mistake up to experience and instead to make him pay?

This might seem a bizarre attitude, but since the whole issue of 'date rape' cropped up, I've come to the conclusion that if I was ever in that situation that I would have to allow myself to be hurt in order to provide physical evidence that the sex was not consensual. I, along with (I think and I hope) the vast majority of women would never dream of turning our misjudgement into anything more than an 'experience' but sadly this over-legislation (IMHO) has been forced into place by the shameful behaviour of a few men who took advantage of situations and a few women who couldn't take responsibility for their actions.
 
#3
This has been commented on I before I think.

But

This is the stupidest route I have seen law take in some time.

Rape is a particularly nasty crime but it can be almost equally as complicated as it is nasty. But if a woman can turn around the next day and say "I was leathered last night, I didn't really want to do it" and get a bloke done for rape, then a man should have an equal chance to say the same thing or at least an equal defence to say he was leathered and thus not in control of his facilities.

Instead of this drivel they should concentrate more on getting the message across to all (male and female), that binge drinking yourself in to a stupor and thus in to a position where you don't know what is going on is bad and will put you in a position that you may well end up having sex that in morning they may regret or at worst put you in a position where you could be raped.

While it may not have been her descision to have sex, it was her descision to get wasted, thus she bears at least some responsibility.

This stinks of some feminest agenda, and is a hamhanded/no brained attempt at protecting women at a hideous risk to men.
 
#4
chocolate_frog said:
Instead of this drivel they should concentrate more on getting the message across to all (male and female), that binge drinking yourself in to a stupor and thus in to a position where you don't know what is going on is bad and will put you in a position that you may well end up having sex that in morning they may regret or at worst put you in a position where you could be raped.

While it may not have been her descision to have sex, it was her descision to get wasted, thus she bears at least some responsibility.
That would be the logical way ahead, but as it is the logical way ahead this government is never going to go there.

In the same way that drink driving has been made socially unacceptable, aking you equally responsible for your actions when you are drunk would send the message that if you allow something to happen to yourself when you are drunk, you are as much to blame, might stop the binge drinking that causes the problem in the first place.

Going out for a drink is okay. Going out and deliberatly getting so drunk that you are incapable of knowing what's going on is not.
 
#6
where i go on leave, there is a major drink spiking problem especially date rape on women to drunk to notice.

the police and bars actively try and advertise and prevent the problem. Yet still when i pick up casual work behind bars I see girls leaving there drinks unattended and downing shooter after shooter very early in the evening so by the time the night is full swing they are oblivious to the world.

Rape is a horrible crime but sometimes i can't help wondering, is stupidity in the face of the facts a bigger crime.
 
#8
What about when the tables are turned and its 2 o'clock in the morning and a bloke who is absolutely monged traps off with a beast (beautiful through beer goggles though). In the morning when he realises what he's done and subsequently chewed his arm off to get away can he realistically say that he was raped as he was to drunk to give consent?

Silly example, serious point. :?
 
#9
A written statement won't be good enough. PACE standards of evidence will be necessary so at the very least a tape-recording of the seduction and possibly a video of the intercourse will be required...

Rape is rape, there is no getting away from it. However a lot of girls out there at close of play are unfit through drink, drugs or mental instability to provide consent. The sensible young man makes damn sure that the act is consensual and now days that the consenting person is a)adult and b)fit to consent and c)unlikely to withdraw that consent if the Siant Space Ants beam something in to her head the next day. Young Master Cuddles, at 17 and a 1/2 has had this explained to him at length. Word to the wise...
 
#10
I think the guardroom should have pre printed "consent to sex forms" before they allow women/men?? on camp..

It is a serious point though, but surely if you dont get something in writing before hand its just your word against theirs..???

Am i wrong?
 

Ventress

LE
Moderator
#11
Within the Sexual Offences Act 2003, there is 'evidential presumption':

If any of the below apply it can assumed the victim did not consent, if the sexual act is proved:

If the victim has been subjected to violence immeidatley before, or at the time of the act

If the victim has been subjected to fear, immiedatley before, or at the time, or fear of violence

victim had been unlawfully detained

if the victim was asleep or unconscious

because of the victims physical disabilty they would have not have been at the time of the act been able to communicate consent.


Also if the victim is under 13 years old, consent cannot be given by the victim.
 

Ventress

LE
Moderator
#12
smoojalooge said:
where i go on leave, there is a major drink spiking problem especially date rape on women to drunk to notice.

the police and bars actively try and advertise and prevent the problem. Yet still when i pick up casual work behind bars I see girls leaving there drinks unattended and downing shooter after shooter very early in the evening so by the time the night is full swing they are oblivious to the world.

Rape is a horrible crime but sometimes i can't help wondering, is stupidity in the face of the facts a bigger crime.
Then don't serve them anymore if they are $hitfaced!!!! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
 
#13
Good idea Ventress, but in practice hard to police. As a humble bar man how do you know how drunk they are? As the drink driving ads show, everyone is different and you can't judge how much will affect you.

Although those funny lid things to prevent spiking on bottles aren't a bad idea.
 
#14
This is a reflection on society. Women should not get so drunk they end up compromising their own safety and men (drunk or sober) should not take advantage of a woman so drunk that she is clearly not capable of judging the consequences of her actions, let alone so drunk that she is incommunicado. The recent example of the students' union steward who "apparently" seduced his drunken charge was particularly distasteful.

Meanwhule, pubs are open longer for business and a certain Mr Mills was pocketing shares in a brewery company whilst his missus was public health minister....
 
#15
Ventress said:
smoojalooge said:
where i go on leave, there is a major drink spiking problem especially date rape on women to drunk to notice.

the police and bars actively try and advertise and prevent the problem. Yet still when i pick up casual work behind bars I see girls leaving there drinks unattended and downing shooter after shooter very early in the evening so by the time the night is full swing they are oblivious to the world.

Rape is a horrible crime but sometimes i can't help wondering, is stupidity in the face of the facts a bigger crime.
Then don't serve them anymore if they are $hitfaced!!!! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
I don't but if they start the night with 2 or 3 shooters it's obvious what state they will be in by the end of the night.
 

Ventress

LE
Moderator
#16
chocolate_frog said:
Good idea Ventress, but in practice hard to police. As a humble bar man how do you know how drunk they are?
Bollox, as a bar-person you know if a person has had too much, after all you have been selling then pints, shorts and shots all night.

They are the ones throwing up and laying in their own $hit.
 
#17
although this is in the 'serious' bit of arrse, just thought I'd share an email sent out yesterday;

Hello Everybody,

Slightly serious subject. For those of you who keep in touch with current
affairs you will be aware that the Crown Prosecution Service has issued
advice to all sexually active males to obtain explicit consent from any
female they are about to have full intercourse with. It need not be
mentioned here that promiscuity is, to an extent, an accepted part of many
people's time at university. Like any University based organisation we wish
to provide a protective mechanism for our members against any unforseen
legal action. As much as this we are very keen to avoid any adverse
publicity regarding members of the contingent becoming embroiled in any such
affair.

With this in mind, gentlemen please find attached a consent form which you
can print off and carry with you around campus ready for deploying if the
need should arise. If you do use the form then feel free to hand in a copy
to a responsible officer for filing but at the very least keep hold of the
form and file away in a safe place.

Regards


---

I the undersigned 1st party (female), being of sound body and mind (though ever so slightly tipsy) hereby consent to have full sexual intercourse with the undersigned 2nd party (OCdt/JUO/Subbie male).

No legal action shall be brought as a result of the aforementioned intercourse unless the 2nd parties performance is so disappointing as to render the 1st party psychologically damaged and inclined to seek same sex encounters of a carnal nature.

In the event of ménage-a-trois signatures are to depend on the number of people of each gender involved. Signatories should add to the document signing underneath the already allocated space and depending on the applicable situation.

Situation 1.
2 females and 1 male; In the event of this situation the male shall be known as the 2nd party (OCdt/JUO/Subbie male) and the additional female shall be known as the 3rd party (female)

Situation 2
2 males and 1 female; In the event of this situation the female is to remain known as the 1st party (female) while the additional male is to be known as the sad ****** who can’t pull his own woman.

Situation 3
3 females and 1 male; in the event of this situation the male is to be instantly promoted two ranks and knighted in the New Years’ / Queen’s Birthday honours list (which ever is closest to the event). He is to be referred to as ‘the man’ in any resultant legal proceedings.



Signed; 1st Party (female) Signed; 2nd Party (Male OCdt/JUO/Subbie)
____________________ ______________________
Print; Print;
____________________ ______________________
 
#18
Ventress said:
chocolate_frog said:
Good idea Ventress, but in practice hard to police. As a humble bar man how do you know how drunk they are?
Bollox, as a bar-person you know if a person has had too much, after all you have been selling then pints, shorts and shots all night.

They are the ones throwing up and laying in their own $hit.
The law now makes it a criminal offence for bar staff to serve someone they BELIEVE to be drunk. If in doubt, refuse to serve or face a hefty fine & criminal record!
 
#19
Also, for those of you out there who work behind bars, there are plain clothes police sat at bars watching you what you sell to your customers. At the nth pint they will stop you and tell you you have sold n amount of pints to that individual who will now clearly be drunk (even if he isn't falling over). The Fixed Penalty Notices under the new Act has been raised from £80 to £5000 - and what you have done is a crminal offence. The police in north Wales recently carried out an under age sales sting, fined 68 pubs out of 71 and THEN asked the staff for their fingerprints.............

You should be aware that the average pint contains over 2 units of alcohol, that roughly 2 units is the drink drive limit and that the weekly safe limit for a man is 21 units. Your liver processes alcohol 1 unit per hour. So if you have sold someone 5 pints over a 3 hour period, they still have something like 10 units of alcohol in their blood - 5 times the drink drive limit.

There is no legal definition of drunk - yet! It's on it's way though.

you have been warned!
 
#20
The law now makes it a criminal offence for bar staff to serve someone they BELIEVE to be drunk. If in doubt, refuse to serve or face a hefty fine & criminal record!
Observing that law will get you your P45...Probably in a single shift.
 

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