Confederate or Federal?

squeekingsapper

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Yank_Lurker said:
Virgil said:
Couple replies--the newly-arriving immigrants were *not* overwhelmingly anti-slavery. Freed blacks meant cheap hired labor to compete with them for jobs. The Irish certainly held no love for freedmen.

As for Gettysburg....the Union Army was in disarray, and not terribly capable of following up. Remember, this wasn't the day of motorized warfare, men had to march. And the men were exhausted. Logistics wouldn't have been able to resupply them on the move either, after a major engagement.

Oh yeah--another superb Union cavalry officer, who actually performed his job competently: Buford. Screening and reconnaisance--not hairing all over the countryside trying to get in the papers, like certain Reb cavalry commanders I could name...
The Union army was exhausted the day after Gettysburg, as they had just marched half the length of the Country, however so had the Confederates so they should have been urged forward to finish the job as they had the upper hand.

I also agree on Buford, and another top cavalry officer was Nathan Bedford Forrest, who is sadly remembered now more for his post war "work" than his excellent leadership and tactics during the war.
 
squeekingsapper said:
...and another top cavalry officer was Nathan Bedford Forrest, who is sadly remembered now more for his post war "work" than his excellent leadership and tactics during the war.
His post war work pales into insignificance when you think about the Fort Pillow massacre...he was not a bad cavalry commander but he was not the sine qua non. He was also a war criminal. i think he would have been quite at home in the VRS...
 
This conversation made me think of a song I heard a while back--about the 69th New York (Irish Brigade) and the New York Fire Zouaves. Author unknown, original lyrics:

The Boys That Wore the Green

On the 21st of July, beneath a burning sun,
McDowell met the Southern troops in battle at Bull Run.
Above the Union vanguard, was proudly to be seen
Beside the starry banner, old Erin's flag of green.

Col. Corcoran led the 69th on that eventful day,
I wish the Prince of Wales were there to see him in the fray.
His charge upon the batteries was a most glorious scene,
With gallant New York firemen and the boys that wear the green.


In the hottest of the fire, there rode along the line
A captain of the Zouave band, crying, "Now, boys, is your time."
Ah, who so boldy rides with the bold and dauntless men?
'Tis Thomas Francus Meagher of Erin's isle of green.


The colors of the 69th, I say it without shame,
Were taken in the struggle to swell the victor's fame;
But Farnham's dashing Zouaves, that run with the machine,
Retook them in a moment, with the boys that wore the green.


Being overpowered by numbers, our troops were forced to flee.
The Southern black horse cavalry on them charged furiously,
But in that hour of peril, the flying mass to screen,
Stood the gallant New York firemen with the boys that
wore the green.


Oh, the boys of the 69th, they are a gallant band,
Bolder never drew a sword for their adopted land.
Amongst the fallen heroes, a braver had not been
Than you, lamented Haggerty, of Erin's isle of green.


Farewell, my gallant countrymen who fell that fatal day.
Farewell, ye noble firemen, now mouldering in the clay.
While blooms the leafy shamrock, whilst runs the old machine.
Your deeds will live bold Red Shirts and boys that wore the green
.

By the way--Thomas Francis Meagher had been convicted by the Crown of sedition in 1848, transported to Van Diemen's Land, later made his way to America, and ended up a Brig. General commanding the Irish Brigade. Later acting governor of Montana Territory.
 
Yank_Lurker said:
Virgil said:
Yank_Lurker said:
By contrast, the Union had Grant, Meade, Sherman, Sheridan. Plenty of competent if not genious commanders.
I think there is something to this. I wouldn't include Meade so much, his failure to follow up at Gettysburg rightly drove Lincoln mad.

The rest of these guys were part of Grant's Union leadership in the West and simply showed a better understanding of warfare than mediocrities like McClellan.
Couple replies--the newly-arriving immigrants were *not* overwhelmingly anti-slavery. Freed blacks meant cheap hired labor to compete with them for jobs. The Irish certainly held no love for freedmen.
They certainly weren't pro-slavery. At worst many groups may have been ambivalent but as many if not more were openly anti-slavery in attitude (internet forum historians ignored).


The main immigrant groups at the time were German, Irish and British.

The German's were virulently anti-slavery. there's more than enough factual evidence--German-American newspapers from the era, letters and speeches from community leaders, slave bounty hunters accosted in German communities, reminiscences from the Republican convention in Chicago--to show that German's voted Republican in masse as much over slavery issues as the Know-Nothings driving them there.

Immigrants from the UK where slavery where slavery was abolished by the 1830s could certainly be categorized as generally opposed to it.

Outside NYC or a couple of other cities the number of freeman wasn't tipping any employment balance in the greater part of the Northern states.

The Irish 'issue' with freeman was peculiar to the NY City in which free blacks replaced Irish workers in '63 and the ensuing rioting was a problem particular to NYC.

While the recent Irish probably weren't as anti-slavery in attitude as the newly arrived Germans they certainly weren't pro-slavery, internet Civil War CW or not.

EDIT: Indeed what's been forgotten by 'pop' historians is the 25 year liaison between Northern abolitionists and leaders of Irish Catholics in Ireland.

As for Gettysburg....the Union Army was in disarray, and not terribly capable of following up. Remember, this wasn't the day of motorized warfare, men had to march. And the men were exhausted. Logistics wouldn't have been able to resupply them on the move either, after a major engagement.
Ask yourself if Grant would have followed it up, exhaustion or not. Based on his operations in the West and those after taking over command in the East the answer would have been yes I think.
 

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