Confederate or Federal?

AT55

LE
Knut said:
Union - I look good in blue.
At the beginning of the war there was not enough material to dress both sides entirely in either Union blue or Confederate gray. For some time some troops on both sides wore butternut coloured uniforms.
 
IndianaDel said:
The theme tune to Ken Burns' Civil War, is a modern tune, that was deliberately chosen as it sounded "period"
Ashokan Farewell.
 

No.9

LE
AT55 - "At the beginning of the war there was not enough material to dress both sides entirely in either Union blue or Confederate gray. For some time some troops on both sides wore butternut coloured uniforms."

??? Do you have some reference for that? I would have said before the split there were some State configurations, some 'private' and, in theory, Federal regs that prescribed dark blue. Hence in the initial stages some Confederate Units took the field in dark blue ala Union troops. As the war progressed, probably more new southern recruits had what they arrived with rather than issued kit. Biggest apparel shortage, footwear.

No.9
 

woody

LE
Having worked and lived in the south with out a second thought Union.
Listened to the rants about how the war wasen't about slavery then asked if the south had won would the slaves be freed ?
I've worked with guys from the isle of wight so had enough of inbreds :twisted:
 
If I remember rightly, many immigrants to the US were shanghied into the Army as soon as they got off the boat. And since most immigrants arrived at ports in the North, we'd all probably have worn blue (or another colour if we were in a Zouave regiment, or other bizarrely uniformed unit).
 

AT55

LE
No.9 said:
AT55 - "At the beginning of the war there was not enough material to dress both sides entirely in either Union blue or Confederate gray. For some time some troops on both sides wore butternut coloured uniforms."

??? Do you have some reference for that? I would have said before the split there were some State configurations, some 'private' and, in theory, Federal regs that prescribed dark blue. Hence in the initial stages some Confederate Units took the field in dark blue ala Union troops. As the war progressed, probably more new southern recruits had what they arrived with rather than issued kit. Biggest apparel shortage, footwear.

No.9
Errrr No I do not have a reference however I remember reading that the CSA dressed their soldiers in gray and butternut whilst some states of the Union dressed their Sates' militia in light brown uniforms that looked like butternut. There were many blue on blue or butternut on light brown incidents until the Union dressed all of its soldiers in blue. I think I know which book I read it in and will have a look in my local library (if they have not changed it into gay/lesbian/unmarried mums' drop-in centre) and let you know the reference.
 

No.9

LE
Very kind offer but no need to venture out of Fort Apache on my account, my local library went years ago – just like our Post Office. :( I just wondered if you might be able to site a Unit or engagement? Plenty of accounts all round of the ragged start to the Civil War before the ‘blue and grey’ aspect, but, while some northern and southern Units both started in various blue or grey uniforms, and availability and quality of dye caused problems, the walnut ‘butternut’ dye I thought was used by the south being cheap and available?

No.9
 

AT55

LE
jonwilly said:
Always remember from Alister Cooke's TV series on America.
That Robert E. Lee was first offered Command of the Union Forces and that after he refused, despite the fact that he was against Slavery, he became Commander of the Southern troops.
Lee's old House and grounds in Washington are now the Arlington National Cemetery.
john


If my failing memory serves me correctly, President Lincoln offered Gen Lee command of the Union Army but Lee considered himself a Virginian before an American and offered his serviced to his State. For most of the war he commanded the Army of Northern Virginia.
Gen Lee's wife inherited the house and land at Arlington and also some slaves. Some time after this, Gen Lee was granted extended leave to deal with some problems associated with the estate/slaves. Lee, who was from the Virginian gentry class, and I doubt if he was anti-slavery as he had been around slaves all of his life.
Prior to the start of the War, you may recall that John Brown tried to start an uprising when he seized the Federal Arsenal at Harper's Ferry. The officer sent to arrest Brown and put down the rebellion was Col Robert E Lee.

If anyone is interested and has any money to spare, Leger are starting Battlefield tours of the American Civil War in 2009. I am thinking of going but the price of the tour and single room supplement is fcuking expensive. If anyone (preferably blonde, large pert breasts and extra long legs) is interested on going on a room sharing basis, I am open to suggestions.
 

No.9

LE
I’m sure Leger Tours are wonderful, (wouldn’t know myself), but I don’t expect things have changed that much since I toured around there. Could have easily (and cheaply) done self-drive from Washington or Baltimore, but decided to use some of the many coach tours offered from and to either/all. Did Harper’s Ferry, Gettysburg and several others on various visits, all very good, all very inexpensive and (being American) plenty of extras if you wished. Also, being American, if you’re on your tod you’ll have to work at not socialising and making ‘good buddies’ in five minutes. My visits were all pre web times and I had no trouble with a few local brochures and a few phone calls. Knew what I wanted to see and why before I went of course, but found all ‘on the spot’ facilities easy and excellent.

Examples:
http://www.dctours.us/tours/tourType.cfm?ttid2=3670
http://www.civilwartours.net/tours.html

No.9

ps. if you want an escort, ask Jimmy on the door of Camelot’s in DC – pps. take a carton of menthols and you’ll be well sorted :wink:
 
squeekingsapper said:
Slavery was not actually anything to do with the war between the states starting, as the Union still had slavery after the war, and the famous emancipation proclamation only freed slaves in states in rebellion against the Union, of which technically there were none.
Slavery--unlike the revisionist claims of recent years--certainly did have something to do with the start of the war.

While 'states rights' was an issue the causes of the conflict can't be looked at without the rise of abolitionists in the North and the election of the abolitionist Republican party candidate--Lincoln--to the presidency.

The increasing number of immigrants were themselves anti-slavery and added to the abolitionist movement.

It may not have been the sole issue, but it certainly was a major one.

While you're technically correct that slavery outlasted the Civil War, it did so only in three states and only till the end of 1865 when the thirteenth amendment was finally passed after being proposed in January of 1865.
 
Tartan_Terrier said:
If I remember rightly, many immigrants to the US were shanghied into the Army as soon as they got off the boat. And since most immigrants arrived at ports in the North, we'd all probably have worn blue (or another colour if we were in a Zouave regiment, or other bizarrely uniformed unit).
The Union (Northern) army was filled with German and Irish brigades.

This article claims the roles show about 1/3 of Union soldiers were foreign born, mostly German and Irish with a healthy number from Britain (ironic since the South was made up of mostly English, Scots & Ulter-Scots).

Foreign Soldiers in the American Civil War - LINK
 
Yank_Lurker said:
By contrast, the Union had Grant, Meade, Sherman, Sheridan. Plenty of competent if not genious commanders.
I think there is something to this. I wouldn't include Meade so much, his failure to follow up at Gettysburg rightly drove Lincoln mad.

The rest of these guys were part of Grant's Union leadership in the West and simply showed a better understanding of warfare than mediocrities like McClellan.
 
No.9 said:
AT55 - "At the beginning of the war there was not enough material to dress both sides entirely in either Union blue or Confederate gray. For some time some troops on both sides wore butternut coloured uniforms."

??? Do you have some reference for that? I would have said before the split there were some State configurations, some 'private' and, in theory, Federal regs that prescribed dark blue. Hence in the initial stages some Confederate Units took the field in dark blue ala Union troops. As the war progressed, probably more new southern recruits had what they arrived with rather than issued kit. Biggest apparel shortage, footwear.

No.9
Lyon's men, hearing the firing to the south die away, waited with increasing anxiety for Sigel's men to sweep up the south slope of Bloody Hill and take the Confederates from the rear. But Sigel was in trouble. After his original surprise attack had overwhelmed the Confederate encampments in front of him, he had continued circling to his right, across an open meadow, until he had moved nearly three quarters of the way around the Confederate army. At this point, he was intercepted by McCulloch, who had hurriedly formed a force from elements of the 1st Arkansas Mounted Riflemen and the 3rd Louisiana Infantry, including the wellknown Pelican Rifles.

Sigel then learned at great cost that neither side had standard uniform colors this early in the War. He saw a mass of gray-clad men approaching and mistook them for the men of the 1st Iowa Infantry, who wore gray. He passed the word along his line not to fire and sent out a corporal to verify the identity of the approaching troops.

Seeing this man come near, McCulloch asked him which outfit he was with. "Sigel's regiment," replied the corporal--and then, as if realizing the situation, raised his rifle to fire at McCulloch. Before he could pull the trigger, Corporal Henry Gentles of the Pelican Rifles shot him dead. McCulloch swiveled in his saddle and shouted to the Pelicans' commanding officer, "Captain, take your company up and give them hell!"

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/1117/oakhill.html
 
Virgil said:
Yank_Lurker said:
By contrast, the Union had Grant, Meade, Sherman, Sheridan. Plenty of competent if not genious commanders.
I think there is something to this. I wouldn't include Meade so much, his failure to follow up at Gettysburg rightly drove Lincoln mad.

The rest of these guys were part of Grant's Union leadership in the West and simply showed a better understanding of warfare than mediocrities like McClellan.
Couple replies--the newly-arriving immigrants were *not* overwhelmingly anti-slavery. Freed blacks meant cheap hired labor to compete with them for jobs. The Irish certainly held no love for freedmen.

As for Gettysburg....the Union Army was in disarray, and not terribly capable of following up. Remember, this wasn't the day of motorized warfare, men had to march. And the men were exhausted. Logistics wouldn't have been able to resupply them on the move either, after a major engagement.

Oh yeah--another superb Union cavalry officer, who actually performed his job competently: Buford. Screening and reconnaisance--not hairing all over the countryside trying to get in the papers, like certain Reb cavalry commanders I could name...
 
Random_Task said:
The Union. I don't like splitters.
Was that the Union of United States, the United Union of States or the United States Union?
 

bugout

Clanker
my thoughts.....

a] Go to Gettybsburg; do the tour;walk the battlefield;realise the slaughter here was on American soil [we Europeans forget there are other battlefields...]

b] The South ? wrong,but romantic...
The North ? right but repulsive.....

c]and whose side would I be on ? Stonewall Jacksons....
 

No.9

LE
Yank_Lurker, in my follow-up post to the one you quoted, I stated initially there were BLUE and GREY uniforms on BOTH sides, and even combinations of the two. HOWEVER, my query was with the NORTH producing/issuing uniforms in BUTTERNUT brown?

No.9

ps. despite artists impressions of Jackson and men at First Manassa in neat uniform grey, records state the 4th and 27th Virginia were a general mix of styles and colours found on both sides, and not necessarily uniform among their own regiment, and Tom Jackson himself took the field dressed in a Federal blue Colonel's uniform.

Viz:
Romantic


Probably closer
 
Union if only an excuse to bayonet one of my neighbours who drives a Chevy pick up with a rebel flag its fecking brighton not Alabama :roll:
things like a reverse tardis bigger than a hilux but with a smaller loadbed :?
not that it matters never see it get dirty :?
 

No.9

LE
Not like Maclean & Maclean’s ‘Long Distance Daddy’ is he – drives over to the ice box for a six-pack. Does he have a Wild West gun rack in the back window? Flagpole on the front lawn ringed by regularly whitewashed stones – sorry, limed rocks – which he utilises every morning and evening complete with music and salute, and hanging over his fireplace either a portrait of him (in uniform) or the flag raising on Iwo Jima? :roll:

No.9
 
IF memory is a wee bit fuzzy........
Did some New York Regiment wear a Zouve uniform complete with Red Fez type shako?

The whole summer of 1861 was a Quartermasters nightmare as various states had different ideas when it came to equipping newly raised regiments and Brigades.

The film Gettysburg was possible due to all those re-enactors having a wet dream when it came to acting on the actual battleground.

The three books by Michael Shaara are easy to read.

Still have to join the Federales as they played http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nikMneu7H90
 

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