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Comrade Corbyn to the fore - whither (or wither) the Labour Party?

Which is their massive blind spot. They just don't understand that what's left of the working classes are completely uninterested in everything that gets them so excited. Wibbling on about white privilege means nothing to some poor git trying to bring up a family in an overcrowded house on a low wage.
Or indeed a sparkie, plumber, accountant, guy running car repair place and so on. People who pulled themselves up by the bootstraps through grafting. Labour has become the non workers party. They would much rather spend time navel gazing and enviously complaining about 'the rich' than attempt to become rich themselves by applying some elbow grease.
 
That the regional offices weren’t loyal to the troika does not necessarily make them disloyal to the party. They were trying to work around the extreme views and incompetence of an extreme faction.

Imagine sitting out in the shires and watching those at the centre alienate the electorate more and more, only to be told that all was well and it was the electorate’s ignorance that was the problem, not the policies and pronouncements.
The Islington Illuminati have been living in their Marxist bubble since they were students and have never grown up. They just can't fathom why the working class Labour heartlands of the Uk have voted against them. Even after a crushing defeat they are still claiming they won the argument!
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Which is their massive blind spot. They just don't understand that what's left of the working classes are completely uninterested in everything that gets them so excited. Wibbling on about white privilege means nothing to some poor git trying to bring up a family in an overcrowded house on a low wage.
See? You don’t even realise you’re racist!
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
The Islington Illuminati have been living in their Marxist bubble since they were students and have never grown up. They just can't fathom why the working class Labour heartlands of the Uk have voted against them. Even after a crushing defeat they are still claiming they won the argument!
Typical champagne socialism!
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Which is their massive blind spot. They just don't understand that what's left of the working classes are completely uninterested in everything that gets them so excited. Wibbling on about white privilege means nothing to some poor git trying to bring up a family in an overcrowded house on a low wage.
That very much came out of a conversation with my cousin back in the northeast. Eulogising such as the miners while attacking everything English isn’t a great strategy.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
The Islington Illuminati have been living in their Marxist bubble since they were students and have never grown up. They just can't fathom why the working class Labour heartlands of the Uk have voted against them. Even after a crushing defeat they are still claiming they won the argument!
I've mentioned this before but one of the groups I was on whilst still on Facebook centred on UK politics. One poster said, effectively, that Labour gave up on the working class when it realised the leverage it could get out of immigrant populations.

I sucked my teeth when I read that initially, then started to feel that there was more to it. More to the point, if that's what much of the working class feels then that's what matters. It's like anti-Semitism; Labour might feel/state that it's not but if the Jewish community feels that it is then that's what counts.

But looped into all of this is the whole White Privilege thing. The people that are listened to are the ethnic minorities - one could reasonably say that they get too much of an ear, at least at times. Certainly, that's the feeling even within and between the ethnic minorities - look at the collapse of Labour's vote within the Sikh and Hindu communities at the last election, courtesy of its overwhelming concentration on the Muslim community's* 'needs'.

The working class that Labour purports to represent doesn't, any more than the caricature Tory exists.

Until the clumsy, cartoonish characters are put aside, Labour isn't going to get to grips with the electorate in anything like the terms needed to secure election victory. Oh, and it needs to remember that almost 90 percent of the population in this country is still white. That is relevant and it's not racist, or threatening, or elitist to say it.




*In fact, we need to challenge this 'community' nonsense as there are numerous factions to any single group of people in this country. There isn't a 'Muslim community'. There isn't a 'black community'. These are lazy identifiers based on religion and skin colour, which fail to take account of numerous other factors. I'm in the middle of watching the following video at the moment. It's worth watching in this regard.
 

Trans-sane

LE
Book Reviewer
I've mentioned this before but one of the groups I was on whilst still on Facebook centred on UK politics. One poster said, effectively, that Labour gave up on the working class when it realised the leverage it could get out of immigrant populations.

I sucked my teeth when I read that initially, then started to feel that there was more to it. More to the point, if that's what much of the working class feels then that's what matters. It's like anti-Semitism; Labour might feel/state that it's not but if the Jewish community feels that it is then that's what counts.

But looped into all of this is the whole White Privilege thing. The people that are listened to are the ethnic minorities - one could reasonably say that they get too much of an ear, at least at times. Certainly, that's the feeling even within and between the ethnic minorities - look at the collapse of Labour's vote within the Sikh and Hindu communities at the last election, courtesy of its overwhelming concentration on the Muslim community's* 'needs'.

The working class that Labour purports to represent doesn't, any more than the caricature Tory exists.

Until the clumsy, cartoonish characters are put aside, Labour isn't going to get to grips with the electorate in anything like the terms needed to secure election victory. Oh, and it needs to remember that almost 90 percent of the population in this country is still white. That is relevant and it's not racist, or threatening, or elitist to say it.




*In fact, we need to challenge this 'community' nonsense as there are numerous factions to any single group of people in this country. There isn't a 'Muslim community'. There isn't a 'black community'. These are lazy identifiers based on religion and skin colour, which fail to take account of numerous other factors. I'm in the middle of watching the following video at the moment. It's worth watching in this regard.

Are you aware of the branch of Post-Modernism called Intersectionality Studies? I can't claim to be an expert but its like a lot of Western Philosophy (just turned up to 11) in that the obvious contradictions to its hypothesis can be readily identified by spending 10 minutes in the real world. But I digress...

Intersectionality is basically an attempt to rank the power structures discussed in other sections of Post-Modernism- by ranking who is most oppressed. So anyone black is oppressed, and anyone female is oppressed, and anyone gay is oppressed, therefore anyone black and female is more oppressed etc. You may at this point be thinking "That sounds an awful lot like identity politics" and you'd be correct. It is the philosophical foundation of identity politics. The thing is... None of them seem to have taken it to its obvious conclusion. If in any group there is a separation where some have less power and influence and thus are "oppressed", then you can divide every single group into ever finer and more granulated sub-groups until you reach a point that division cannot be carried out any further. Then you have divided all the group of society down to what those of us with real-world experience call "The Individual".
 

Slime

LE
I've mentioned this before but one of the groups I was on whilst still on Facebook centred on UK politics. One poster said, effectively, that Labour gave up on the working class when it realised the leverage it could get out of immigrant populations.

I sucked my teeth when I read that initially, then started to feel that there was more to it. More to the point, if that's what much of the working class feels then that's what matters. It's like anti-Semitism; Labour might feel/state that it's not but if the Jewish community feels that it is then that's what counts.

But looped into all of this is the whole White Privilege thing. The people that are listened to are the ethnic minorities - one could reasonably say that they get too much of an ear, at least at times. Certainly, that's the feeling even within and between the ethnic minorities - look at the collapse of Labour's vote within the Sikh and Hindu communities at the last election, courtesy of its overwhelming concentration on the Muslim community's* 'needs'.

The working class that Labour purports to represent doesn't, any more than the caricature Tory exists.

Until the clumsy, cartoonish characters are put aside, Labour isn't going to get to grips with the electorate in anything like the terms needed to secure election victory. Oh, and it needs to remember that almost 90 percent of the population in this country is still white. That is relevant and it's not racist, or threatening, or elitist to say it.




*In fact, we need to challenge this 'community' nonsense as there are numerous factions to any single group of people in this country. There isn't a 'Muslim community'. There isn't a 'black community'. These are lazy identifiers based on religion and skin colour, which fail to take account of numerous other factors. I'm in the middle of watching the following video at the moment. It's worth watching in this regard.

While I get your comment about 90% being white, there is a lot more to ‘communities’ imho, and how Labour do or don’t represent them.

Many of the young kids where I live use a lot of ’American terminology’ watch US tv shows and listen to US music. This group includes all colours, and from what I see and hear they couldn’t give a toss about Palestine, the ‘rich’ or BLM matters.

What also stands out in contrast is that while many of these kids seem to idolise the USA, there are also many older black people I meet in London who see themselves as ‘Londoners’. While these may be from families who have lived here for decades they are still more concerned about traffic congestion or housing prices than Palestine or BLM.
 
Are you aware of the branch of Post-Modernism called Intersectionality Studies? I can't claim to be an expert but its like a lot of Western Philosophy (just turned up to 11) in that the obvious contradictions to its hypothesis can be readily identified by spending 10 minutes in the real world. But I digress...

Intersectionality is basically an attempt to rank the power structures discussed in other sections of Post-Modernism- by ranking who is most oppressed. So anyone black is oppressed, and anyone female is oppressed, and anyone gay is oppressed, therefore anyone black and female is more oppressed etc. You may at this point be thinking "That sounds an awful lot like identity politics" and you'd be correct. It is the philosophical foundation of identity politics. The thing is... None of them seem to have taken it to its obvious conclusion. If in any group there is a separation where some have less power and influence and thus are "oppressed", then you can divide every single group into ever finer and more granulated sub-groups until you reach a point that division cannot be carried out any further. Then you have divided all the group of society down to what those of us with real-world experience call "The Individual".
The problem with this attitude is that I have black, gay and female friends who do not feel oppressed, but they don't count as they voted Brexit.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Are you aware of the branch of Post-Modernism called Intersectionality Studies? I can't claim to be an expert but its like a lot of Western Philosophy (just turned up to 11) in that the obvious contradictions to its hypothesis can be readily identified by spending 10 minutes in the real world. But I digress...

Intersectionality is basically an attempt to rank the power structures discussed in other sections of Post-Modernism- by ranking who is most oppressed. So anyone black is oppressed, and anyone female is oppressed, and anyone gay is oppressed, therefore anyone black and female is more oppressed etc. You may at this point be thinking "That sounds an awful lot like identity politics" and you'd be correct. It is the philosophical foundation of identity politics. The thing is... None of them seem to have taken it to its obvious conclusion. If in any group there is a separation where some have less power and influence and thus are "oppressed", then you can divide every single group into ever finer and more granulated sub-groups until you reach a point that division cannot be carried out any further. Then you have divided all the group of society down to what those of us with real-world experience call "The Individual".
Exactly the point that Murray makes in one of his other interviews - if you break it down, then every individual is a minority because we are none of us exactly the same.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
While I get your comment about 90% being white, there is a lot more to ‘communities’ imho, and how Labour do or don’t represent them.

Many of the young kids where I live use a lot of ’American terminology’ watch US tv shows and listen to US music. This group includes all colours, and from what I see and hear they couldn’t give a toss about Palestine, the ‘rich’ or BLM matters.

What also stands out in contrast is that while many of these kids seem to idolise the USA, there are also many older black people I meet in London who see themselves as ‘Londoners’. While these may be from families who have lived here for decades they are still more concerned about traffic congestion or housing prices than Palestine or BLM.
Similarly, many of the white kids who live near me speak like they're from Kingston - Jamaica, not -upon-Thames.

(Which, incidentally, just underscores how affected the 'ethnic' accents are among even the ethnic kids.)

You make a good point about the issues that do or don't matter. Quite why there was a flurry of Palestinian flags at a Labour Party annual conference I still struggle to grasp. Quite how you can purport to support equality while lumping yourself in with BLM also eludes me; equality isn't achieved by making special cases of small groups, it's achieved by treating everyone the same and not letting those with agendas get away with pretending that they're somehow 'oppressed'.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
The problem with this attitude is that I have black, gay and female friends who do not feel oppressed, but they don't count as they voted Brexit.
@halo_jones has made just such this point in different ways - that the Marxists make the assumption that a minority - any minority - will automatically assume it is oppressed and will automatically vote Labour.

Never mind that we all, as people, share roughly the same aims: financial security; a desire to be able to progress in life, with an at-least equal chance at doing so; and so on.

The Hard Left calls non-whites who don't vote Labour 'race traitors'. Who's guilty of stereotyping, then?
 
...
I sucked my teeth when I read that initially, then started to feel that there was more to it. More to the point, if that's what much of the working class feels then that's what matters. It's like anti-Semitism; Labour might feel/state that it's not but if the Jewish community feels that it is then that's what counts.
...
I would disagree. If you're considering their public image as an organisation which depends on public support for their continued success, then it matters not what the "working class" or the "Jewish community" think about them if they can still get enough votes without those sections of the electorate. If, however, you're considering whether or not they are anti-Semitic, then what the "Jewish community" think isn't unimportant, but it isn't the deciding factor. What reasonable, fair-minded, disinterested people think is.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
I would disagree. If you're considering their public image as an organisation which depends on public support for their continued success, then it matters not what the "working class" or the "Jewish community" think about them if they can still get enough votes without those sections of the electorate. If, however, you're considering whether or not they are anti-Semitic, then what the "Jewish community" think isn't unimportant, but it isn't the deciding factor. What reasonable, fair-minded, disinterested people think is.
Yes, I agree. You express it better than I did - thank you.
 
I would disagree. If you're considering their public image as an organisation which depends on public support for their continued success, then it matters not what the "working class" or the "Jewish community" think about them if they can still get enough votes without those sections of the electorate.
That's been the Labour leadership's biggest problem for the last few years.
They are so far up themselves that they're completely out of touch with the public's perception of them (regardless of class, status or religious beliefs) They rely on the traditional Labour areas for the bulk of their votes and hope they can win a few marginals to tip the balance in a general election. The fact that they are now struggling to win votes in their previously safe areas means they have zero chance of forming a government.
By not allowing criticism from within, particularly from the regional areas they have convinced themselves they are right. They think the Labour masses will fall into line when required but can be ignored the rest of the time.
The last general elction burst the bubble, but many in the Labour ranks are still refusing to see why they lost and who was responsible for them losing.
 
Some of you may remember a series of documentaries, a couple of years’ ago, on ‘The Working Class’ by ‘Two Jags’.
At one point he interviewed a couple of early 20s coloured girls in a council flat in south London.
He asked ‘how does it feel to be working class?’
‘What me, I’m not working class’, came the reply.
Two Jags obviously could not believe his ears.
‘What do you mean you’re not working class?’
‘Well I ain’t got a job. Never have had. So if I ain’t working, I can’t be working class, can I!’
Frankly, I’d have given her a job for having a far better sense of English Comprehension than most, these days.
 

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