Comrade Corbyn to the fore - whither (or wither) the Labour Party?

Truxx

LE
It’s been going on for years in one form or another.

Mid 80’s Grad Officers had an accelerated promotion profile which (correct me if I’m wrong someone) meant they climbed the time based promotion ladder 2Lt-Capt with a head start of 100% of years spent at Uni. We had one who had spent 4 years studying Egyptology who then became an overnight expert in Armoured Warfare and an almost overnight Capt. He improved his standing immeasurably by moaning to the Adjt that subbies weren’t saluting him first thing in the morning.
I fear you are correct.

When I joined (late 70s) the Army were deliberately pitching 3 years in the Army better than 3 years at university.

Which suited me just fine!!
 
@headgear I have always thought that the Blair concept came from an idea that graduates earn more. To move the poor out of poverty they should be given the opportunity to do a degree as it was clear that graduates earn more. Unfortunately not everyone was capable of work at that level.
I was lucky. I came from the end of the era when a less-than-rich kid could get into grammar school by passing the 11+ and/or getting a place at a direct-grant school. Furthermore, I got a full grant for Uni and somehow never got into the red, despite the cost of science and maths textbooks.

Of course, this was back in the days when if Unis said "2 A-Levels at A grade and 1 at B, minimum", they meant it. Men were Men, Women were Women, and A-Levels were A-Levels - not GCSEs self-identifying as Advanced. Even a Gentleman's Degree counted for something in the Real World. ;-)
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
I was lucky. I came from the end of the era when a less-than-rich kid could get into grammar school by passing the 11+ and/or getting a place at a direct-grant school. Furthermore, I got a full grant for Uni and somehow never got into the red, despite the cost of science and maths textbooks.

Of course, this was back in the days when if Unis said "2 A-Levels at A grade and 1 at B, minimum", they meant it. Men were Men, Women were Women, and A-Levels were A-Levels - not GCSEs self-identifying as Advanced. Even a Gentleman's Degree counted for something in the Real World. ;-)
We don't want social mobility. We want equality. Innit.
 
I fear you are correct.

When I joined (late 70s) the Army were deliberately pitching 3 years in the Army better than 3 years at university.

Which suited me just fine!!
Depends. I applied for infantry when I was 18 (mid 70s) - they said hie thee to a uni, get a degree and become an engineer. I failed aircrew selection after that (damaged eye was under min specs) and got a similar message.

(Despite being an aircraft fiend from a young age and a Space Cadet, the Army officer adverts of the time appealed to me more because they dwelled on the responsibilities not what you got out of it personally)

TBH, though, I quickly found that people are people. There were good and bad officers with all kinds of educational backgrounds, and engineers were Engineers, rather than just techies, regardless of background as well. I encountered a lot of people who were the dog's wotzits on given bits of kit or specialities, but struggled with the unknown or systems-level thinking.
 
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There you go again with that meaningless and unquantifiable phrase.

Define 'rich' and define 'poor' and let's start from there.
Well when I was at school, rich meant anyone with parents who owned their own house, wore Barathear blazers to school, had pocket money whearas people like me were poor because we existed (living is not an accurate description) in a council house, got uniforms from welfare and hand-me-downs, had free school meals and stole the things we wanted or saved money from sat jobs and/or paper rounds.

Strangely enough the so-called rich generally went on to 6th form and Uni whilst the rest of us were desperate to get into work so we had some money.

I don't envy those who went into further education, at the time it was the thing to do if you were middle or upper class I just hope they achieved what they wanted.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Well when I was at school, rich meant anyone with parents who owned their own house, wore Barathear blazers to school, had pocket money whearas people like me were poor because we existed (living is not an accurate description) in a council house, got uniforms from welfare and hand-me-downs, had free school meals and stole the things we wanted or saved money from sat jobs and/or paper rounds.

Strangely enough the so-called rich generally went on to 6th form and Uni whilst the rest of us were desperate to get into work so we had some money.

I don't envy those who went into further education, at the time it was the thing to do if you were middle or upper class I just hope they achieved what they wanted.
Yes but there were also grammar schools, bursaries, apprenticeships and sponsored night school... a whole raft of ways that if life didn't afford you the opportunity to go through the front door, you could get in at the side.

Labour (or the lot that calls itself Labour) would keep all of that shut down.

This has long since stopped being the party of mobility.
 
Yes but there were also grammar schools, bursaries, apprenticeships and sponsored night school... a whole raft of ways that if life didn't afford you the opportunity to go through the front door, you could get in at the side.

Labour (or the lot that calls itself Labour) would keep all of that shut down.

This has long since stopped being the party of mobility.
I went to an RC school, boys only, which retained a little of the grammar stream but was actually a comprehensive. The contrast between well off and not was very clear and teachers played favourites, you can guess which ones they favoured.

I left with the equivalent of 5 O levels mainly because of a massive attitude change in my last year and some excellent teachers.

It was obvious which boys would get into 6th form, then further.
 
Yes but there were also grammar schools, bursaries, apprenticeships and sponsored night school... a whole raft of ways that if life didn't afford you the opportunity to go through the front door, you could get in at the side.

Labour (or the lot that calls itself Labour) would keep all of that shut down.

This has long since stopped being the party of mobility.
Cough… not til their kids have finished there




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I left with the equivalent of 5 O levels mainly because of a massive attitude change in my last year and some excellent teachers.
And that, right there, is part of the way that people manage to get out of poverty.

What caused your attitude change?

It was obvious which boys would get into 6th form, then further.
5 O-Levels should have put you in the 6th form range. If finances made this difficult, the O-Levels could also have been a stepping-stone into a better job than those without would have had available.

IIRC, 5 O-Levels were the minimum for officer at the time I joined or a CS job; many from my grammar school left after O-Levels, either to go to technical college or into work.

OTOH, it also depends upon what jobs were available within a given area, attitudes towards social mobility, and having (being given) an awareness of what one could do (I just went and found a paying job for my gap year, a friend's dad "knew somebody" and my friend ended up doing a much more interesting job; I was pretty clueless about what I could have done).
 
We don't want social mobility. We want equality. Innit.
Ah, Equality of Outcome not Equality of Opportunity.

Translation: Everyone identifies (with Momentum et al) as Epic Life Fails and everyone is skint.

Kind offer, no thanks. Bruv.
 
Both my grandfathers were miners. Both were adamant that none of their sons (between them, seven in total) would go down the pit. None did.

I've worked with lots of former miners.
Not one of the coal lads regrets the end of deep coal.

Hard rock, gypsum and anhydrite miners all happy enough with their lot but coal miners only miss the money.
I'd be reluctant to accept criticism of miners from anybody who hasn't spent a day down a coal mine.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
I've worked with lots of former miners.
Not one of the coal lads regrets the end of deep coal.

Hard rock, gypsum and anhydrite miners all happy enough with their lot but coal miners only miss the money.
I'd be reluctant to accept criticism of miners from anybody who hasn't spent a day down a coal mine.
As ever, some of the biggest gobshites never went underground.
 

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