Comrade Corbyn to the fore - whither (or wither) the Labour Party?

But there are solutions to these crises and Theresa May’s botched Brexit deal is not “the only deal possible.”

Combined with the election of a radical Labour government our alternative plan will allow us to make the fundamental changes that are so badly needed in our country, while respecting those who voted both leave and remain.
Jezza clearly doesn't believe in democracy. The people of the UK voted to leave the EU which should mean that ALL politicians should be working WITH the government to get the best possible deal for the country. Instead we see the circus currently going on and wonder why the EU think they can shaft us.
 
Pure courtesy... the Tories alone don't have the numbers to guarantee a win either.
The DUP won’t vote against the govt, they’ve already said as much. They’re not likely to give up their large amount of political influence for a relatively tiny number of MPs lightly. Unless Corbyn can get conservative MPs to vote against their own party (not likely to happen) he can’t win.
 
The DUP won’t vote against the govt, they’ve already said as much. They’re not likely to give up their large amount of political influence for a relatively tiny number of MPs lightly. Unless Corbyn can get conservative MPs to vote against their own party (not likely to happen) he can’t win.
Jezza uses lots of words but says nothing, you need to note his speech: "
So I say to Theresa May: if you are so confident in your deal then call that election and let the people decide.
If not, Labour will table a motion of no confidence in the government at the moment we judge it to have the best chance of success.
"
Best chance of success???
 
Labour will table a motion of no confidence in the government at the moment we judge it to have the best chance of success. "
Best chance of success???
Picking the right moment... a bit like PMTM cancelling the meaningful vote in the face of certain disaster. Cancelling to buy time for a better chance of success... Delaying until the 'right moment'...

The best chance of success for a vote of no confidence may well be immediately after the government is defeated next Tuesday but he is simply avoiding the trap of tying himself to that specific time. If the government was to win on Tuesday, a vote of no confidence would be pretty pointless so why commit to it?

Regardless of who it is calling for a vote on whatever the the vote is about... if the luxury of picking the best opportunity for success is available, why would you go for it when success is less likely?

Can you honestly imagine, with the situation wholly reversed, Labour Government / Tory Opposition, that Mrs May would not say and do exactly the same thing when it comes to dropping the VoNC bomb on Steptoe and Co?
 
Picking the right moment... a bit like PMTM cancelling the meaningful vote in the face of certain disaster. Cancelling to buy time for a better chance of success... Delaying until the 'right moment'...

The best chance of success for a vote of no confidence may well be immediately after the government is defeated next Tuesday but he is simply avoiding the trap of tying himself to that specific time. If the government was to win on Tuesday, a vote of no confidence would be pretty pointless so why commit to it?

Regardless of who it is calling for a vote on whatever the the vote is about... if the luxury of picking the best opportunity for success is available, why would you go for it when success is less likely?

Can you honestly imagine, with the situation wholly reversed, Labour Government / Tory Opposition, that Mrs May would not say and do exactly the same thing when it comes to dropping the VoNC bomb on Steptoe and Co?
Whatever the words, process and machinations it is clear Corbyn wants a General Election as he fancies his chances. I wonder though if that happened and the Conservatives won what his and the Momentum type supporters would be?

Would they accept the vote as the will of the people or get all angry and keep shouting about kicking the Tories out. These types don't seem to accept losing with any grace at all.
 
The DUP won’t vote against the govt, they’ve already said as much. They’re not likely to give up their large amount of political influence for a relatively tiny number of MPs lightly. Unless Corbyn can get conservative MPs to vote against their own party (not likely to happen) he can’t win.
The DUP has said it will not support the government on Tuesday. If Steptoe drops the VoNC bomb immediately after it may be difficult to support the very government you have just failed to support.

In terms of Tuesdays vote, today's analysis has the government defeated by well over 100 votes. It wouldn't take many of those to 100 to swing a VoNC.

My money is currently saying a GE is on the cards for sooner rather than later. Ordinarily the best form of defence is to attack. If the government is confident that they would win a GE and thus a renewed mandate to continue, they should be getting in front of Corbyn rather than hoping he does nothing but talk the talk.
 
The DUP won’t vote against the govt, they’ve already said as much. They’re not likely to give up their large amount of political influence for a relatively tiny number of MPs lightly. Unless Corbyn can get conservative MPs to vote against their own party (not likely to happen) he can’t win.
About 20 Tory MPs voted for Grieve's amendment so anything is possible, they're still capable of shooting themselves in the foot

They know they're toast as MP's so they have little to lose now
 
Whatever the words, process and machinations it is clear Corbyn wants a General Election as he fancies his chances. I wonder though if that happened and the Conservatives won what his and the Momentum type supporters would be?

Would they accept the vote as the will of the people or get all angry and keep shouting about kicking the Tories out. These types don't seem to accept losing with any grace at all.
They'd want a second people's general election by any means necessary
 
Whatever the words, process and machinations it is clear Corbyn wants a General Election as he fancies his chances. I wonder though if that happened and the Conservatives won what his and the Momentum type supporters would be?

Would they accept the vote as the will of the people or get all angry and keep shouting about kicking the Tories out. These types don't seem to accept losing with any grace at all.
My bold. You have answered your own question there.
As for a GE. At least if we had one sooner rather than later, Corbyn would have to spell out his Brexit plan in a manifesto..................wouldn't he?
 
Whatever the words, process and machinations it is clear Corbyn wants a General Election as he fancies his chances. I wonder though if that happened and the Conservatives won what his and the Momentum type supporters would be?

Would they accept the vote as the will of the people or get all angry and keep shouting about kicking the Tories out. These types don't seem to accept losing with any grace at all.
That Corbyn wants a general election is straight from the school of the bleedin' obvious. That the Labour Party will continue to whine is assured but in the case of a general election, the lines are rather more clearly defined.

The problem here though is not one of simple defeat in a fairly binary election. The Labour Party haven't actually lost anything. They are simply doing what all the others with opposing views to the government are doing.

If the Green Party, the DUP, the LibDems or for that matter, even the Conservatives (with Labour in power) were Her Majesty's Most Loyal Opposition, it would be exactly the same thing from them in respect of a very flawed, leave without leaving, remain without quite remaining deal. (Or any other major issue affecting the UK on such a major scale).

We may well think the Labour Party is a pile of putrid shit but that view shouldn't get in the way of seeing what is purely Party politics at work. The Labour Party is simply doing what parties in opposition have always done and always will. Not much point to being in opposition if you can't oppose.
 

RZer0

LE
How is having another GE going to help, it will be the same civil servants running things in the background and I'm sure most people know Lab have no plan of substance if any. It might turn out bad for Jezzer if a GE is called and he loses again which is more than likely.
 

Auld-Yin

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My bold. You have answered your own question there.
As for a GE. At least if we had one sooner rather than later, Corbyn would have to spell out his Brexit plan in a manifesto..................wouldn't he?
No he wouldn't, he would just have to say Labour would approach this differently to the Tories and that Labour will reopen negotiations. He won't say anything as really the Labour party have nothing to say.
 
No he wouldn't, he would just have to say Labour would approach this differently to the Tories and that Labour will reopen negotiations. He won't say anything as really the Labour party have nothing to say.
I agree with all of that, but can you imagine a televised debate, pre election.

Dimbledum (for it is he) " I would like to ask both party leaders what are your Brexit plans?"

PMTM " I have clearly set out my Brexit plans, if they are not approved then it's no deal."

CORBYN " We would renegotiate a deal that is fair for everyone, customs union.....Euro.........Northern Ireland....good for jobs,,,,zzzzzzz"

Dimbledum "Yes but what do you think you can renegotiate and who with?"

CORBYN " I think it's a bit early to discuss any details, just vote for me and evrything will be fine"

Fade to black, BBC continuity announcer..."And now on BBCone we have a documentary on Unicorns."
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
That Corbyn wants a general election is straight from the school of the bleedin' obvious. That the Labour Party will continue to whine is assured but in the case of a general election, the lines are rather more clearly defined.

The problem here though is not one of simple defeat in a fairly binary election. The Labour Party haven't actually lost anything. They are simply doing what all the others with opposing views to the government are doing.

If the Green Party, the DUP, the LibDems or for that matter, even the Conservatives (with Labour in power) were Her Majesty's Most Loyal Opposition, it would be exactly the same thing from them in respect of a very flawed, leave without leaving, remain without quite remaining deal. (Or any other major issue affecting the UK on such a major scale).

We may well think the Labour Party is a pile of putrid shit but that view shouldn't get in the way of seeing what is purely Party politics at work. The Labour Party is simply doing what parties in opposition have always done and always will. Not much point to being in opposition if you can't oppose.
Not everything in parliament is opposed. Yes, where policy clashes but for normal day to day work there is a lot of cross party work and collaboration. It has to be or nothing would ever get done.

Brexit has been exceptional and where cross party collaboration was not only desirable but essential to getting brexit through parliament and a united face shown to the EU negotiators. What we have ended up with is no cross party work with the two main parties having avgobat each other while within these parties are groups of MPs fighting their own Parties. It has been a four way fight, not just between two Parties.
 
Not everything in parliament is opposed. Yes, where policy clashes but for normal day to day work there is a lot of cross party work and collaboration. It has to be or nothing would ever get done.

Brexit has been exceptional and where cross party collaboration was not only desirable but essential to getting brexit through parliament and a united face shown to the EU negotiators. What we have ended up with is no cross party work with the two main parties having avgobat each other while within these parties are groups of MPs fighting their own Parties. It has been a four way fight, not just between two Parties.
Once again we are in agreement (I'm getting worried now!) Brexit is the biggest non war decision any UK parliament has made in decades. It affects everyone living and working here regardless of politics. What are our 2 main parties doing? In fighting, schoolboy taunts across the house and downright lies to further their own political carreers!
Yes Minister would have rejected the storyline as being too far from reality and basically not funny.
 
Not everything in parliament is opposed. Yes, where policy clashes but for normal day to day work there is a lot of cross party work and collaboration. It has to be or nothing would ever get done.

Brexit has been exceptional and where cross party collaboration was not only desirable but essential to getting brexit through parliament and a united face shown to the EU negotiators. What we have ended up with is no cross party work with the two main parties having avgobat each other while within these parties are groups of MPs fighting their own Parties. It has been a four way fight, not just between two Parties.
I am forever indebted to you for that. I really didn't know any of it.

Or perhaps I was generalising a little to make a point.
 
How is having another GE going to help, it will be the same civil servants running things in the background and I'm sure most people know Lab have no plan of substance if any. It might turn out bad for Jezzer if a GE is called and he loses again which is more than likely.
How you can say that when the intellectual titan that is Kier Starmer will be in charge of the negotiations is beyond me.....
 

RZer0

LE
How you can say that when the intellectual titan that is Kier Starmer will be in charge of the negotiations is beyond me.....
Because Im not someone trying hard to gain the 49% of voters that voted to remain (Ironically I voted to remain and he won't be getting my fecking vote)
 
My bold. You have answered your own question there.
As for a GE. At least if we had one sooner rather than later, Corbyn would have to spell out his Brexit plan in a manifesto..................wouldn't he?
I was thinking more about the potential for civil disobedience,

We heard at the last TUC jamboree mention of general strikes to "get the Tories out". So rather than accept the will of the people in the event of a Conservative win would we expect demos, riots, strikes etc. to thwart the will of the people? And in that case would those acting so renounce any claim to be democratic representatives of the people or would they still claim (with a straight face) that what they are doing is what the people want?

I get a sense that the Labour party is moving away from acceptance to justifying zealotry and dogma, all in the name of the people of course.
 

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