Comrade Corbyn to the fore - whither (or wither) the Labour Party?

There are simple and easy ways round all those concerns.

I don’t want to get in to whatabouterry against the current system but I’m sure you can work the problems out.

In any given election (& referendum!!!) we see large numbers of voters utterly unrepresented.


Much as I despise the drooling idiots and crypto-Nazi scumbags* of UKIP, the numbers voting for them -and the Greens for that matter- demand that there should be people in Parliament on their behalf.

Obviously.
The problem there is that you'll get a few chaps in from the minor parties, but they become kingmakers, horse-trading with the bigger parties.
Tail wagging dog etc etc
 
Just for clarity this is what’s happening.

1. A very few Labour machine people are guilty of either actual anti Semitism or stupid comments which make it arguable..
Labour MP Dawn Butler has stated that the government is "institutionally racist" due to the Home Secretary's mishandling of the Windrush affair. How many members would have to be suspended before the Labour party could be described as institutionally anti-Semitic?

2. A substantial number of Labour members from Muslim backgrounds are stridently anti Israel, possibly racist anti Jew hiding behind this.
Most people I know are appalled by what's happened in Zimbabwe since independence. None of them equate black people in the UK with comrade Mugabe. None of have turned into slavering racists.

3. A great many Labour members (me included) have severe reservations about Israel’s moral high ground as a democracy (this isn’t the same as ‘supports the PLO/Hamas/ whoever terror campaigns’)
What has Israel got to do with British Jews?

4. A number of actors with antipathy to Labour in general or Saint Jeremy in particular have frotted themselves in to an ecstasy by convincing various dullards that Labour is somehow a haven for Nazis.)

5. If (a big ‘if’) Jezza has any sense he’s appearing content because he is fully aware that this is a PR rather than a real disaster-the ‘anti/Semitic Labour’ hysteria is built on sand and holds little electoral threat.
Labour has a real, widespread and blatantly obvious problem with anti-Semitism. Trying to dismiss it as a conspiracy theory or only believed by people of low intelligence is just a rerun of the Brexit campaign.

The biggest round of applause on last week's Question Time came when a government minister put her hands up and apologised for the Windrush fiasco. Do you think she'd have got more applause if she'd called the audience "dullards" and pretended that it never happened?
 
Labour MP Dawn Butler has stated that the government is "institutionally racist" due to the Home Secretary's mishandling of the Windrush affair. How many members would have to be suspended before the Labour party could be described as institutionally anti-Semitic?



Most people I know are appalled by what's happened in Zimbabwe since independence. None of them equate black people in the UK with comrade Mugabe. None of have turned into slavering racists.



What has Israel got to do with British Jews?



Labour has a real, widespread and blatantly obvious problem with anti-Semitism. Trying to dismiss it as a conspiracy theory or only believed by people of low intelligence is just a rerun of the Brexit campaign.

The biggest round of applause on last week's Question Time came when a government minister put her hands up and apologised for the Windrush fiasco. Do you think she'd have got more applause if she'd called the audience "dullards" and pretended that it never happened?
No you don't.
Because that way you lose direct representation via a constituency MP.
And your party's seats in the house are the top X names on their list.
So IF a member is a potential moonhowler, like the Labour candidate for Worcester, or an old-school-tie Tory, but gets enough internal party votes, they'll be high on the list and guaranteed a seat, as opposed to going toe-to-toe in a constituency where they'd be hande their ass by the opposition.

I’ll grapple with this when I’m sober tomorrow.
 
I have to say I agree with Milne on one thing: Criticism & dislike of the state of Israel isn't antisemitism & often justified.
Calling it such diminishes the perceived gravity of genuine antisemitic words & deeds.
I agree. Israel stifles any dissent with the 'antisemitism' line. Problem is, Labour's mouth breathers and their Islamic friends can't tell the difference, or deliberately ignore it to bash a few Joos
 
So what proportion of those suspended or accused of anti-semitism are Muslim then? Here’s a clue, whilst it’s there, it’s not a big one.
Although I tend to agree with the OP point.

I suspect that for the purposes of mobilising support, local Labour parties are happy to recruit from within Muslim populations in the constituencies where these can deliver large vote blocks.

In order to achieve this, they tailor their message.

It is a repeat of what happened in the early 1990s when the BNP achieved their first elected council member in Tower Hamlets.if it had not been for Labour and liberal democrats engaged in messaging towards white voters deliberately playing on local housing issues, but blaming immigrant populations - the BNP were unlikely to get in*.

These days we would talk about creating a "cognitive opening" (ie, allowing people to think in a certain way") and "frame alignment" (ie, matching people and the message that you wish to send). I suppose a decade plus national culutrsl discussion of radicalisation should have made us more critical.

Mobilisation of support was achieved by messaging suited to the human terrain. Even before FaceTube. Support is achieved, but the blowback is the normalisation and promotion of some opinions embarrassing to the political party in question.

On the broader issue, I always used to wonder about the collection of people I saw on Palestinian Solidarity Campaign marches (for example). I don't think I met one Arabic speaker, and i could not get a decent explanation of the human terrain or history from the people I was attempting to chat with.

Probably not the best of circumstances to try a decent conversation anyway, but I doubt if they met me in the pub for a vegan beer they would not have been able to do any better than "Palestine good, Israel (and USA/west) bad".

* It must also be said, at tbe time the Lib Dems reacted by having an open investigation into the matter which was published. Labour did not publish any such internal investigation.
 
So In the last fortnight 20 Labour Party members have been suspended for anti-Semitic behaviour. In a similar time period how many members of any other party have been suspended for anti Semitic behaviour?

Would the answer to that be none by any chance?
Be careful what you wish for, the last thing the Conservative party want or need is a microscope pointed in the direction of their members views and opinions on race especially in light of the windrush situation :mrgreen:



https://www.unitetheunion.org/uploaded/documents/(JN7434) A4 Tory Racism Brochure SIN11-26629.pdf

The “dossier” runs to 6 pages of examples and is fully referenced

The hypocrisy is astounding and the weight of the media leaning on Corbyn is huge and utterly disproportional, almost undemocratic (as it has been since he became party leader)
 
Corbyn is a threat to this country and his ilk is relying on the lazy working class vote to give them power. Even though they are in opposition to the working class English.
At this point theGimp realised there was no hope for a balanced political discussion on arrse :mrgreen:
 
The Jewish boards of deputies seem to have had their meeting report firmly in place and ready to go as soon as the meeting was over. Read into that what you will...
What I read into it was that they were well prepared for the meeting. They will have been aware of the possible range of outcomes, and had probably drafted a variety of responses. They are probably the sort of people who, if they were making a train journey would have the foresight to book the requisite amount of adjacent seats beforehand.
 

Auld-Yin

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Be careful what you wish for, the last thing the Conservative party want or need is a microscope pointed in the direction of their members views and opinions on race especially in light of the windrush situation :mrgreen:



https://www.unitetheunion.org/uploaded/documents/(JN7434) A4 Tory Racism Brochure SIN11-26629.pdf

The “dossier” runs to 6 pages of examples and is fully referenced

The hypocrisy is astounding and the weight of the media leaning on Corbyn is huge and utterly disproportional, almost undemocratic (as it has been since he became party leader)
Classic deflection tactics, don't look at us, look at them. Be a lot better if they just dealt with their own internal issues.
 
What I read into it was that they were well prepared for the meeting. They will have been aware of the possible range of outcomes, and had probably drafted a variety of responses. They are probably the sort of people who, if they were making a train journey would have the foresight to book the requisite amount of adjacent seats beforehand.
Definitely seats on a train. No standing or sitting on the floor if there is room, definitely seats.... and a return ticket too...and back to thread...


Edited to add:
After I typed this I seriously wondered:


Is this a joke
Is this an anti-semitic joke?
Is this a joke on Labours organisational skills?
Is this highlighting an incident where JC was exposed as a lying politician?
Is this an ironic statement on Jewish organisational skills?
Is this highlighting an ironic anti-semitic statement by JC that this is how one travels on a train...?


I don't know but suddenly I wasn't sure about what I had written.
 
Last edited:
What I read into it was that they were well prepared for the meeting. They will have been aware of the possible range of outcomes, and had probably drafted a variety of responses. They are probably the sort of people who, if they were making a train journey would have the foresight to book the requisite amount of adjacent seats beforehand.
I laughed because of the entertaining swipe at Corbyn and his train journeys.

But then felt dirty laughing because of some bad connotations in history of train journeys...

Excuse me whilst I over think this, I'll be in the fit birds in uniform room.
 
Just for clarity this is what’s happening.

1. A very few Labour machine people are guilty of either actual anti Semitism or stupid comments which make it arguable.

2. A substantial number of Labour members from Muslim backgrounds are stridently anti Israel, possibly racist anti Jew hiding behind this.

3. A great many Labour members (me included) have severe reservations about Israel’s moral high ground as a democracy (this isn’t the same as ‘supports the PLO/Hamas/ whoever terror campaigns’)

4. A number of actors with antipathy to Labour in general or Saint Jeremy in particular have frotted themselves in to an ecstasy by convincing various dullards that Labour is somehow a haven for Nazis.

5. If (a big ‘if’) Jezza has any sense he’s appearing content because he is fully aware that this is a PR rather than a real disaster-the ‘anti/Semitic Labour’ hysteria is built on sand and holds little electoral threat.
By Jove, Holmes! It's all an Evil Tory smear campaign, you say?

Quite remarkable.
 

Auld-Yin

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It’s a two way range, unfortunately the controlling range wardens in the Media are all conservative
Now it is the fault of the media! Is there anyone you won't blame before Saint Jezza is brought to account?
 
Be careful what you wish for, the last thing the Conservative party want or need is a microscope pointed in the direction of their members views and opinions on race especially in light of the windrush situation :mrgreen:



https://www.unitetheunion.org/uploaded/documents/(JN7434) A4 Tory Racism Brochure SIN11-26629.pdf

The “dossier” runs to 6 pages of examples and is fully referenced

The hypocrisy is astounding and the weight of the media leaning on Corbyn is huge and utterly disproportional, almost undemocratic (as it has been since he became party leader)
Classic whataboutery. The difference is that even UKIP very clearly and quickly kick out the lunatics. Labour don’t
 
Be careful what you wish for, the last thing the Conservative party want or need is a microscope pointed in the direction of their members views and opinions on race especially in light of the windrush situation :mrgreen:



https://www.unitetheunion.org/uploaded/documents/(JN7434) A4 Tory Racism Brochure SIN11-26629.pdf

The “dossier” runs to 6 pages of examples and is fully referenced

The hypocrisy is astounding and the weight of the media leaning on Corbyn is huge and utterly disproportional, almost undemocratic (as it has been since he became party leader)
Going through the PDF an awful lot of those mentioned resigned from the party or were kicked out, some of the examples are POV from Tories, ie. the veil should not be allowed, thats an opinion.

I believe the various Jewish organisations have given the Labour party over 2000 names of Labour members who have expressed anti semantic views via social media. Of those 2000 the number acted upon is around 10%
 

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