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Comrade Corbyn to the fore - whither (or wither) the Labour Party?

In the past fortnight 20 labour members have been suspended and many more (number unknown) are being investigated

Do you just make this shit up? It's late are you drinking
Suspended is not the same as expelled. It's like being given detention at school or polishing the guard room floor - it is not dealing with the problem.
 
In the past fortnight 20 labour members have been suspended and many more (number unknown) are being investigated

Do you just make this shit up? It's late are you drinking
So In the last fortnight 20 Labour Party members have been suspended for anti-Semitic behaviour. In a similar time period how many members of any other party have been suspended for anti Semitic behaviour?

Would the answer to that be none by any chance?
 
I don't know why anybody is surprised that the hard left and right are antisemitic. They have both used Jews as targets for hatred at one time or another. It is identity politics at its most base level.

The more important question to ask is why Her Majesties Opposition as ended up being hard left and what can be done about it?

Corbyn is a threat to this country and his ilk is relying on the lazy working class vote to give them power. Even though they are in opposition to the working class English.
 
I don't know why anybody is surprised that the hard left and right are antisemitic. They have both used Jews as targets for hatred at one time or another. It is identity politics at its most base level.

The more important question to ask is why Her Majesties Opposition as ended up being hard left and what can be done about it?

Corbyn is a threat to this country and his ilk is relying on the lazy working class vote to give them power. Even though they are in opposition to the working class English.
Isnt democracy shit?
 
I don't know why anybody is surprised that the hard left and right are antisemitic. They have both used Jews as targets for hatred at one time or another. It is identity politics at its most base level.

The more important question to ask is why Her Majesties Opposition as ended up being hard left and what can be done about it?

Corbyn is a threat to this country and his ilk is relying on the lazy working class vote to give them power. Even though they are in opposition to the working class English.
I don't see it as identity politics, more deflection.

Whenever people have screwed up they look for someone else to blame. The Jews seem to be a popular choice.
 
No.

Having two parties to choose between is shit. We end up hoping for the occasional great leader to save us from going down the pan. Currently, both parties are authoritarian for different reasons and we have no realistic alternative
**** know what country you live in, but in the UK there are a lot more than two parties to vote for plus a few independents.
 
The more important question to ask is why Her Majesties Opposition as ended up being hard left and what can be done about it?
It's entryism. After WW2, people saw that Soviet Communism wasn't anything like the bed of roses that it was made out to be. The commies lost all of their MPs in the first election after the war.

Their response was to look to the Labour party and the unions. As Tony Blair once said, "The Labour Party in the 70s and the 80s was controlled by people like Tony Benn and Arthur Scargill". This led to the Loony Left era and Labour's generation in the wilderness.

Perhaps Tony's greatest achievement was putting the nutters in a box, nailing down the lid and throwing the whole lot into the sea. When Gordon Brown took power, he was too busy saving the world to worry about all those equality managers, diversity consultants and arguments about whether "black" should be spelled with a capital B.

From little acorns do mighty oaks grow and now we see the the hard left's best chance for power for 70 years. All of those socialist workers, British communists and communists of Britain have flocked to join the party that will bring Marxism into our lives.

Last time round Maggie and, to a lesser extent, Tony crushed the hard left. This time, it might be more difficult. Lefties are so ingrained at the grassroots of the party that even a catastrophic loss at the next election might not unseat Jeremy. If it does, he might be replaced by an equally nutty fruitcake.
 
I don't think Corbyn wants to deal with this situation at all. He seems quite content with what is happening!
Just for clarity this is what’s happening.

1. A very few Labour machine people are guilty of either actual anti Semitism or stupid comments which make it arguable.

2. A substantial number of Labour members from Muslim backgrounds are stridently anti Israel, possibly racist anti Jew hiding behind this.

3. A great many Labour members (me included) have severe reservations about Israel’s moral high ground as a democracy (this isn’t the same as ‘supports the PLO/Hamas/ whoever terror campaigns’)

4. A number of actors with antipathy to Labour in general or Saint Jeremy in particular have frotted themselves in to an ecstasy by convincing various dullards that Labour is somehow a haven for Nazis.

5. If (a big ‘if’) Jezza has any sense he’s appearing content because he is fully aware that this is a PR rather than a real disaster-the ‘anti/Semitic Labour’ hysteria is built on sand and holds little electoral threat.
 
No.

Having two parties to choose between is shit. We end up hoping for the occasional great leader to save us from going down the pan. Currently, both parties are authoritarian for different reasons and we have no realistic alternative
We don’t. Because Cameron stitched up Clegg over PR


We need proportional representation in the U.K. Nothing could be more obvious.


Trust me, I have ‘A’ level Politics.
 
We need proportional representation in the U.K. Nothing could be more obvious.
No you don't.
Because that way you lose direct representation via a constituency MP.
And your party's seats in the house are the top X names on their list.
So IF a member is a potential moonhowler, like the Labour candidate for Worcester, or an old-school-tie Tory, but gets enough internal party votes, they'll be high on the list and guaranteed a seat, as opposed to going toe-to-toe in a constituency where they'd be hande their ass by the opposition.
 
No you don't.
Because that way you lose direct representation via a constituency MP.
And your party's seats in the house are the top X names on their list.
So IF a member is a potential moonhowler, like the Labour candidate for Worcester, or an old-school-tie Tory, but gets enough internal party votes, they'll be high on the list and guaranteed a seat, as opposed to going toe-to-toe in a constituency where they'd be hande their ass by the opposition.
There are simple and easy ways round all those concerns.

I don’t want to get in to whatabouterry against the current system but I’m sure you can work the problems out.

In any given election (& referendum!!!) we see large numbers of voters utterly unrepresented.


Much as I despise the drooling idiots and crypto-Nazi scumbags* of UKIP, the numbers voting for them -and the Greens for that matter- demand that there should be people in Parliament on their behalf.

Obviously.


It’s unarguable. The system is not right.







*too harsh?
 
There are simple and easy ways round all those concerns.

I don’t want to get in to whatabouterry against the current system but I’m sure you can work the problems out.

In any given election (& referendum!!!) we see large numbers of voters utterly unrepresented.


Much as I despise the drooling idiots and crypto-Nazi scumbags* of UKIP, the numbers voting for them -and the Greens for that matter- demand that there should be people in Parliament on their behalf.

Obviously.
The problem there is that you'll get a few chaps in from the minor parties, but they become kingmakers, horse-trading with the bigger parties.
Tail wagging dog etc etc
 
Just for clarity this is what’s happening.

1. A very few Labour machine people are guilty of either actual anti Semitism or stupid comments which make it arguable..
Labour MP Dawn Butler has stated that the government is "institutionally racist" due to the Home Secretary's mishandling of the Windrush affair. How many members would have to be suspended before the Labour party could be described as institutionally anti-Semitic?

2. A substantial number of Labour members from Muslim backgrounds are stridently anti Israel, possibly racist anti Jew hiding behind this.
Most people I know are appalled by what's happened in Zimbabwe since independence. None of them equate black people in the UK with comrade Mugabe. None of have turned into slavering racists.

3. A great many Labour members (me included) have severe reservations about Israel’s moral high ground as a democracy (this isn’t the same as ‘supports the PLO/Hamas/ whoever terror campaigns’)
What has Israel got to do with British Jews?

4. A number of actors with antipathy to Labour in general or Saint Jeremy in particular have frotted themselves in to an ecstasy by convincing various dullards that Labour is somehow a haven for Nazis.)

5. If (a big ‘if’) Jezza has any sense he’s appearing content because he is fully aware that this is a PR rather than a real disaster-the ‘anti/Semitic Labour’ hysteria is built on sand and holds little electoral threat.
Labour has a real, widespread and blatantly obvious problem with anti-Semitism. Trying to dismiss it as a conspiracy theory or only believed by people of low intelligence is just a rerun of the Brexit campaign.

The biggest round of applause on last week's Question Time came when a government minister put her hands up and apologised for the Windrush fiasco. Do you think she'd have got more applause if she'd called the audience "dullards" and pretended that it never happened?
 
Labour MP Dawn Butler has stated that the government is "institutionally racist" due to the Home Secretary's mishandling of the Windrush affair. How many members would have to be suspended before the Labour party could be described as institutionally anti-Semitic?



Most people I know are appalled by what's happened in Zimbabwe since independence. None of them equate black people in the UK with comrade Mugabe. None of have turned into slavering racists.



What has Israel got to do with British Jews?



Labour has a real, widespread and blatantly obvious problem with anti-Semitism. Trying to dismiss it as a conspiracy theory or only believed by people of low intelligence is just a rerun of the Brexit campaign.

The biggest round of applause on last week's Question Time came when a government minister put her hands up and apologised for the Windrush fiasco. Do you think she'd have got more applause if she'd called the audience "dullards" and pretended that it never happened?
No you don't.
Because that way you lose direct representation via a constituency MP.
And your party's seats in the house are the top X names on their list.
So IF a member is a potential moonhowler, like the Labour candidate for Worcester, or an old-school-tie Tory, but gets enough internal party votes, they'll be high on the list and guaranteed a seat, as opposed to going toe-to-toe in a constituency where they'd be hande their ass by the opposition.

I’ll grapple with this when I’m sober tomorrow.
 
I have to say I agree with Milne on one thing: Criticism & dislike of the state of Israel isn't antisemitism & often justified.
Calling it such diminishes the perceived gravity of genuine antisemitic words & deeds.
I agree. Israel stifles any dissent with the 'antisemitism' line. Problem is, Labour's mouth breathers and their Islamic friends can't tell the difference, or deliberately ignore it to bash a few Joos
 
So what proportion of those suspended or accused of anti-semitism are Muslim then? Here’s a clue, whilst it’s there, it’s not a big one.
Although I tend to agree with the OP point.

I suspect that for the purposes of mobilising support, local Labour parties are happy to recruit from within Muslim populations in the constituencies where these can deliver large vote blocks.

In order to achieve this, they tailor their message.

It is a repeat of what happened in the early 1990s when the BNP achieved their first elected council member in Tower Hamlets.if it had not been for Labour and liberal democrats engaged in messaging towards white voters deliberately playing on local housing issues, but blaming immigrant populations - the BNP were unlikely to get in*.

These days we would talk about creating a "cognitive opening" (ie, allowing people to think in a certain way") and "frame alignment" (ie, matching people and the message that you wish to send). I suppose a decade plus national culutrsl discussion of radicalisation should have made us more critical.

Mobilisation of support was achieved by messaging suited to the human terrain. Even before FaceTube. Support is achieved, but the blowback is the normalisation and promotion of some opinions embarrassing to the political party in question.

On the broader issue, I always used to wonder about the collection of people I saw on Palestinian Solidarity Campaign marches (for example). I don't think I met one Arabic speaker, and i could not get a decent explanation of the human terrain or history from the people I was attempting to chat with.

Probably not the best of circumstances to try a decent conversation anyway, but I doubt if they met me in the pub for a vegan beer they would not have been able to do any better than "Palestine good, Israel (and USA/west) bad".

* It must also be said, at tbe time the Lib Dems reacted by having an open investigation into the matter which was published. Labour did not publish any such internal investigation.
 
So In the last fortnight 20 Labour Party members have been suspended for anti-Semitic behaviour. In a similar time period how many members of any other party have been suspended for anti Semitic behaviour?

Would the answer to that be none by any chance?
Be careful what you wish for, the last thing the Conservative party want or need is a microscope pointed in the direction of their members views and opinions on race especially in light of the windrush situation :mrgreen:



https://www.unitetheunion.org/uploaded/documents/(JN7434) A4 Tory Racism Brochure SIN11-26629.pdf

The “dossier” runs to 6 pages of examples and is fully referenced

The hypocrisy is astounding and the weight of the media leaning on Corbyn is huge and utterly disproportional, almost undemocratic (as it has been since he became party leader)
 

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