Comrade Corbyn to the fore - whither (or wither) the Labour Party?

In a democracy, do we need a party system at all.

What is the benefit of centralised control of MP's that are in government ?
Without a Party then there would be anarchy and only individuals or there would be the Original pre Leninist system of Soviets or Committees that would rule. With no agreement to come together collectively there will be no country as a whole ,only small states within a land mass and chaos would ensue in a fight for resources.
There is only a notional control of MP's as they are free to vote whichever way they feel benefits their constituents firstly and then the country secondly, in reality in a Party system MP's should follow the party's agreed and published commitments to the electorate.... again to avoid chaos.
 
Quite a good insight into what makes the Great Helmsman tick. What frightens me is that if he ever becomes PM, on age grounds alone he will only be a one term PM, he will do all he can to bring down the system he loathes but not face the consequences. He has a substantial pension pot already and can be off to Cuba or Ven to enjoy the sun and his remaining days, I would not recommend Mexico though for an elderly Trot.

The truth about Jeremy Corbyn: not a spy but a fool who hates capitalism and the West
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
The party system has come about (over several hundred years) due to natural forces and is here to stay for financial reasons. The only sort of person who can bypass it to get into Parliament is one with access to a huge pot of money.


Quite often bods come in ARRSE saying there should be such and such changes to the system, but the only way change can come is via our MPs and they have a vested interest in the status quo. So forget it and suck it up.
 
In a democracy, do we need a party system at all.

What is the benefit of centralised control of MP's that are in government ?
Without a Party then there would be anarchy and only individuals or there would be the Original pre Leninist system of Soviets or Committees that would rule. With no agreement to come together collectively there will be no country as a whole ,only small states within a land mass and chaos would ensue in a fight for resources.
There is only a notional control of MP's as they are free to vote whichever way they feel benefits their constituents firstly and then the country secondly, in reality in a Party system MP's should follow the party's agreed and published commitments to the electorate.... again to avoid chaos.
I'm afraid it's a halfway house. In theory we could do away with parties and MPs and just have a computer vote on the issues of the day. The issue remains about how we select the people to represent the wishes of the electorate and would we trust them enough to do the job. That's always been a fundamental problem, the motives of our representatives. We know that it's not the country or the population.
 
I sort of agree.........at the time I think most of the country was fed up with the Tory party and heartily wanted a change of Govt, along comes Tony and his crony 'I'm relaxed about the filthy rich Mandelson' who said all the right words in the right places and lo we all (yes I'm guilty of voting for my Labour candidate) got what we wanted, or so we thought. The problem now though is wether there is enough trust in either party to enable a single party government to emerge without being beholden to 'friends' in Parliament to help them cling to power. What is required is a purely centrist party that will stand up to the bully boy tactics of both Right and Left whilst laying out a policy that appeals to the great majority........ very Utopian I know!
Please don't get me wrong - the Tories had done a near-perfect job of making themselves unelectable by 1997.

The point is that the essential political debate is between classical liberalism and authoritarian or fascist liberalism, which boils down to a debate about the relationship of the individual to the state. Corbyn is, in many ways, an anomaly that's popped up against the run of play. Had the Labour Left not found a way to fluke the leadership and control the party, it would be an irrelevance and we'd probably now have a Labour government.

The challenge for Western democracies is that welfarism and large-scale social spending, by definition, increases the role of the state and invariably pushes government into a more intrusive and authoritarian space. That's partly why the debate over Brexit is so bitter - the European view of the role of the state and how it relates to the individual is completely at odds with the traditional British view, which is not surprising since the two perspectives derive from entirely different philosophical roots. That New Labour advocates pretty much universally identify with Remain should not surprise anyone.
 
Please don't get me wrong - the Tories had done a near-perfect job of making themselves unelectable by 1997.

The point is that the essential political debate is between classical liberalism and authoritarian or fascist liberalism, which boils down to a debate about the relationship of the individual to the state. Corbyn is, in many ways, an anomaly that's popped up against the run of play. Had the Labour Left not found a way to fluke the leadership and control the party, it would be an irrelevance and we'd probably now have a Labour government.

The challenge for Western democracies is that welfarism and large-scale social spending, by definition, increases the role of the state and invariably pushes government into a more intrusive and authoritarian space. That's partly why the debate over Brexit is so bitter - the European view of the role of the state and how it relates to the individual is completely at odds with the traditional British view, which is not surprising since the two perspectives derive from entirely different philosophical roots. That New Labour advocates pretty much universally identify with Remain should not surprise anyone.
It's probably also true ,that if the other Milliband had been elected leader, he could be Prime Minister but his flouncing off to USA has ended that, despite the darlings of Blairism having elevated him to the hero on a white horse waiting in the wings to ride to save the party from Momentum/Militant.
It is also not inconceivable that if Corbyn actually comes off the fence as an EU Leaver, which is quite possible .I think personally he is one of many in the party who see the EU as another cosy elite and a vehicle for exploiting the working man/woman not only here but throughout Europe so will he become PM in 2020 or sooner who knows or he is just the nearly man and not another Trump style anomaly.
 
The party system has come about (over several hundred years) due to natural forces and is here to stay for financial reasons. The only sort of person who can bypass it to get into Parliament is one with access to a huge pot of money.


Quite often bods come in ARRSE saying there should be such and such changes to the system, but the only way change can come is via our MPs and they have a vested interest in the status quo. So forget it and suck it up.
... or celebrity status .... News reader Bell .... and others [there's no end to the idiocy of the celeb followers]
 
Can now be found at Momentum?
Give how most of them behaved more likely to be found in vicinity of Aleppo fighting for Hay'at Tahrir al-Sham.
 
Just come across this translation from the autobiography of a Czech Air Force Officer, fled to UK 1939 flew with Cz Sqns RAF to 1945 returned home to new Cz AF but fled again 1948 and re-joined RAF. Interesting extract:

During the late Autumn of 1947 I became somehow alarmed with the persistent news-items about the infiltration of extreme left-wingers into the Police, perhaps also into the Army and particularly, into the Czechoslovak Social Democrat Party.This was the prelude to the internal take-over of the ‘Soc-Dem’ party organisation by Fierlinger and his team of Communist infiltrators. When it did happen … I was shaken out of my complacency. Their eventual declaration that the Social Democrats are amalgamating with the Czechoslovak Communist Party seemed to be completely unbelievable.

Everybody could see that this take-over of the party administrative organs was done arbitrarily, without agreement or consultation with members and, it certainly was not legal … but the opponents were in disarray, not able to do anything about it.It was a fait accompli, which certainly could not be described as ‘democratic’ and, for which nobody knew the answer. The whole Social Democratic movement was paralysed into inactivity.As the result, the policy of ‘Entry-ism’ was confirmed as one of the most powerful weapons of the totalitarians. In this ‘Palace revolution’ the Communists have taken away the political representation from some 20% of the electorate, without the Parliament or the Courts being able to intervene!In this we have seen the first manifestation of the Soviet intentions in Czechoslovakia.

The increasing signs of political intimidation were felt everywhere and some people started recognising this new reality. Threatening letters and parcel-bombs were delivered to prominent Democratic Ministers, including the non-political Jan Masaryk. Nobody died but, the threat had to be taken seriously. The implications could be ignored only at our peril.
 
It seems to be a political reality that sections of the electorate are unworried by Mr Corbyn's long held views and associations and believe his pronouncements. If history seems likely to repeat itself, it just goes to show that folk haven't got any smarter.
 

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