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Composite barrel upgrade for SA80 ?

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Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
The next question is that the proposed end of life is about 5 years away. Are they actually going to do trials (at which point they'd better start moving on it, lol), or are they just going to cut everything out by going with Colt Canada C8 rifles cos a) they've been in the system for ages anyway (and have an L-number), b) they're currently giving them to the Parachute Regiment and Marines anyway, so it would be a fairly simple measure to expand that to the rest of the army without a proper tender process. Being outside the EU will also help with that.

Such a thing could even be spun not as a replacement at all, but an expansion of an already existing specialist programme to the entire army.
You could say that about a lot of other weapons in British Army service, L number etc, not just the C7...
 
blast Your eyes Sirrah!

the A3 is the latest in turd brown coloured perfection!

Is that based on your experience?

Fücking gobshite.
 

CC_TA

LE
The next question is that the proposed end of life is about 5 years away. Are they actually going to do trials (at which point they'd better start moving on it, lol), or are they just going to cut everything out by going with Colt Canada C8 rifles cos a) they've been in the system for ages anyway (and have an L-number), b) they're currently giving them to the Parachute Regiment and Marines anyway, so it would be a fairly simple measure to expand that to the rest of the army without a proper tender process. Being outside the EU will also help with that.

Such a thing could even be spun not as a replacement at all, but an expansion of an already existing specialist programme to the entire army.

End of life keeps getting dragged out and extended. :) Trials for new systems are happening all the time.

I did upgrades on the A1, saw the A2 come in and now get to mess about with the A3 - I'm hoping there isn't an A4 coming.

C8s are on their way out and there are probably more AR15 spares on the shelves than C8. :)
 

CC_TA

LE
Cos shorter is more fashionable ;) I haven't found an L number for the C7, and apparently the pathfinders have also transitioned to C8 after their C7's wore out. And apparently C8's is what the Paras and Marines are getting. So I suspect C7's would be seen as a retrograde step.

Both the 15.7" & 10.5" barrelled UK rifle and carbine variants are both listed as L119.
 
.

C8s are on their way out and there are probably more AR15 spares on the shelves than C8. :)


C8's are the new hotness, soon , the people left with the remaining L85's will act like they are the special ones.
 

Tyk

LE
100% agreement. But actually teaching basic rifle marksmanship to a high level hasn't been sexy since about 1914...

Much better (and more profitable) to sell shiny new gizzits and make claims about shiny new expensive combat shooting training...

(it's not just the military though - it's exactly the same mindset on the practical rifle circuit. And the guys who do well are the ones who train the basics up to a high standard and build on that, rather than try to short-circuit the un-sexy part.)

That certainly makes sense, once the fundamentals of any skill are in muscle memory and continue to be practised then the rest can fall in place and adapt to circumstances or new kit. When I was still shooting a lot I could really tell if I had a few weeks off doing other stuff, these days I suspect I'd struggle to hit a barn door reliably.
There is merit to the phrase practise makes perfect.

From your extensive study of the many service rifles you've handled and fired (with the exception of the real one offs and specialist sniper kit) what is the realistic maximum range at which you can reliably engage a man sized target with any assurance of a hit and what do you regard as a real world range at which they're typically used? I've seen a variety of opinions on this. For that matter in the era of smokeless powder has it changed much?
 
And by what magic a composite barrel using current composite technology could sustain the kind of rates of fire required with SS109 without carbonising, catching fire or delaminating.
At the risk of teaching you to suck eggs;
While composite is usually used to refer to fibre reinforced plastic, technically it could cover all sorts of exotic mixtures including aluminium matrix and ceramic reinforcments, phase change materials and other weirdness.

None of that would make any significant difference to a service rifle mind.
 

paddyo

Swinger
a slight thread drift but I watched this the other day, interesting science behind the theory


You're spot on, this Structured Barrel design, while not sandwiched between a composite media, is more geared toward the Harmonics of a firearm to maintain accuracy for long distance shooters.

The principle of cooling is similar in that it extracts heat away from the inner barrel, relying on a circle of holes cut to increase surface area cooling by 300% (verified by third party analysts). With all manner of tricks like the external fin detailing that behaves as heat sinks themselves, down to the imperfections of a the sandblasted (non-reflective) coating that behaves the same way at the microscopic level.

I am following this more recent design as it is milled from a single metal alloy piece, with no moving parts. However, the surrounding bored holes will likely attract debris and be a challenge to keep clean in the field I should imagine. Also, the present size of the barrel is too grand for the SA80's current shroud, but I have it on good authority that TacomHQ plan to release compatible barrels for the AR10/15 as early as Q1 2021.
 

dragon825

War Hero
US Army looking at this as a complete system quite an interesting demo, speaks about parts being interchangeable and calibre changes on the support weapons.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Cos shorter is more fashionable ;) I haven't found an L number for the C7, and apparently the pathfinders have also transitioned to C8 after their C7's wore out. And apparently C8's is what the Paras and Marines are getting. So I suspect C7's would be seen as a retrograde step.
And yet given that the ability to reach out and touch at distance has been a concern... why?

Not aimed at you [sic] but letting fashion dictate over effectiveness - that's a retrograde step.
 
300 BLK as anything other than a short-range round for specialist use is pointless. As a general issue round it's way behind the curve, even in supersonic form with light bullets.

I'm not a fanboi personally and stick with my 556mm. I know plenty who do use it for hunting and for general shootery on the range and they all seem to like it. I would suppose the maximum range I have commonly seen it used is around the 200m mark though I am told it does do well at greater ranges - hunting is popular here and an excuse to shoot at distance in the wild whether hunting, or not.

There was an awful lot of once fired surplus Blackout brass that came up for sale, and I am talking mutliple skip loads, and there continues to be a steady stream of it. So someone is still playing with it somewhere.
 

paddyo

Swinger
People who admit to never having shot a gun in their lives should explain to those of us who have, how a firearm firing SS109 which is not sighted for anywhere near 1000m could "reach out to" that distance.

And by what magic a composite barrel using current composite technology could sustain the kind of rates of fire required with SS109 without carbonising, catching fire or delaminating.

I take your point, I seem to have confused the L86 number with the SA80's L85s, apologies. None the less, it matters not as I am looking for feedback on accuracy for the designed range.

Carbonisation build up is a good point, I would like to know how many rounds may be expended, for example if it is all you can carry then perhaps a maximum of ten magazines in the field may be settled upon, at thirty rounds each, would you say 300 rounds tops be the maximum spent in a single outing before falling back to resupply, or downtime ?

The video below shows that the barrel remains cool after being shot several times, with the shooter claiming to have shot nine hundred rounds (.224) without cleaning the firearm from the day before:
watch?v=TwUI-uIl-cw
start : 3mins 47 sec

If you could give me some numbers that would be useful to see what kind of demand the barrel would be under by present servicemen.
 

paddyo

Swinger
We're only just starting to sort the shite A3 handguard issues.

As soon as the yanks decide what ammo they, and we and NATO, will be using a composite barrel won't be an issue for an upgrade to the A3.

I foresee the infantry getting the 'new' rifle first and the rest keeping hold of the A3 until there are enough in the system to go round.

I'm also sure it will all go smoothly and not be a gargantuan clusterfuck.View attachment 506243
I came across a company called Ascendance International selling a pretty impressive injection moulded composite polymer hand guard for US AR rifles. I cannot seem to find the material used for the L852A riffle, I believe it is a metal alloy, however if polymer, then the exchange would not be noticeable.

Heat emanating from a composite barrel is unavoidable, that is it’s job. But this material dissipates heat so well that it can be held by the naked hand under testing scenarios.

Another video with Jeff (RIP):
watch?v=EYXa2vmcAnQ
 

paddyo

Swinger
At the risk of teaching you to suck eggs;
While composite is usually used to refer to fibre reinforced plastic, technically it could cover all sorts of exotic mixtures including aluminium matrix and ceramic reinforcments, phase change materials and other weirdness.

None of that would make any significant difference to a service rifle mind.

My research finds that a gun with a “Straight Jacket” (Dracos) composite barrel reliably hits targets out at 300yrd in 25mph cross-winds, this after firing nine hundred rounds from the day before and not having been cleaned, apparently.

A key benefit of the Falkor Defence composite barrel is that it has an adjustable gas block to adheres to the true “dwell time” of a barrel's length at the point of which the bullet actually leaves the barrel, be that extended with a suppressor or not, to keep shot groups tight by extending the length of the gas system virtually:

watch?v=msTX1iCXr44

The composite is patented and the company does not let on, but I gather that it is technically an alloy as it has shredding of it in the media treated on the exterior of the barrel. Still being in business (although originally bought out) the claims must translate into improved, or sustained accuracy in the real world. However that is a long way from the battlefield world I should imagine.

There is a lot of talk about avoiding an A4 upgrade, or switching to a Colt Canada C7/8, but I am referring to the A2/3 in use today and swapping out its barrel for a composite that can hit as reliably on round two hundred as it did on its first when the barrel was cold, what kind of real world difference would that make today ?
 
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