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Commercial shipbuilding - why not in the UK?

We haven't had tankers based off good old civvie designs since we aquired (by accident not design) the leaf boats*. Tide and Wave boats are built to naval standards to operate as part of a naval task force and achieve naval tasking's.

Civvie MN engineers coming to the RFA take a walk around a tide boat and go WTF is happening here.

*The leaf boats where so popular in the RFA as they lacked the ability to do almost anything but RAS(L). Meaning they where not being constantly buggered about by the RN doing all their jobs for them. Couldn't even have a flight embarked to clutter up the place. Plus Oakleaf had a pool and a sauna.

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My mistake - i thought the tides whilst BMT designed - were similar to comercial vessels in that "class" with the differrence being fettling around to fit a heli pad and the on deck storage.

What i was envisaging was a (commercial) tanker with a helipad and provision for ras rigs
 

Yokel

LE
My mistake - i thought the tides whilst BMT designed - were similar to comercial vessels in that "class" with the differrence being fettling around to fit a heli pad and the on deck storage.

What i was envisaging was a (commercial) tanker with a helipad and provision for ras rigs

The current ones were. I think there were other differences beyond a flight deck, hangar, and landing aids, RAS rigs, communications....

The aviation facilities cost money to build and maintain, as do the RAS rigs. Who is going to pay for and man them? RAS means needing extra manpower.
 

endure

GCM
The current ones were. I think there were other differences beyond a flight deck, hangar, and landing aids, RAS rigs, communications....

The aviation facilities cost money to build and maintain, as do the RAS rigs. Who is going to pay for and man them? RAS means needing extra manpower.


It also means extra weight which could otherwise be used for carrying commercial cargo and making a bit more profit.
 
Last 'civilian' tankers the RN used were the BP River boats on time charter.
Side (kept in a shed in Pompey until needed) and stern (standard fit) RAS rigs.

Doing general 'RFA' stuff', they got a 4 man Naval Party to help out, when the RN wanted to use them as 'Auxiliary Fleet Oilers' and do more full spectrum RFA stuff including VERTREP, they needed a 12 man Naval Party aboard.

As soon as you add a helicopter to the mix, things get interesting.
 

Yokel

LE
Last 'civilian' tankers the RN used were the BP River boats on time charter.
Side (kept in a shed in Pompey until needed) and stern (standard fit) RAS rigs.

Doing general 'RFA' stuff', they got a 4 man Naval Party to help out, when the RN wanted to use them as 'Auxiliary Fleet Oilers' and do more full spectrum RFA stuff including VERTREP, they needed a 12 man Naval Party aboard.

As soon as you add a helicopter to the mix, things get interesting.

Which is another problem. Where do you get the people? In 1982 the RN had brought personnel to put a naval party about every STUFT vessel. The number of people needed varies from just two aboard a tug to over a hundred for the larger ships performing more complex roles. With most shore jobs being civilianised where will the people come from?
 
The current ones were. I think there were other differences beyond a flight deck, hangar, and landing aids, RAS rigs, communications....

The aviation facilities cost money to build and maintain, as do the RAS rigs. Who is going to pay for and man them? RAS means needing extra manpower.
Provision - as in for but not with = space weight plumbing allocated - to be added if needed* for a those isles part 2 etc

I did not mean to suggest permanent installation


*yes that means ordering a few extra rigs
 
Provision - as in for but not with = space weight plumbing allocated - to be added if needed* for a those isles part 2 etc

Not that simple. As @endure, noted, that's space and weight that could be used for carrying cargo. It's also nigh-on impossible to add the extra accommodation, commissariat, stores and workshops you need afterwards. Your typical product tanker has a crew of under 20 - a Tide has over 60. So you end up with a much bigger deckhouse that also needs fire protection, HVAC, lighting etc, etc. All of which take energy, which costs money, which goes onto your op costs. In a world where freight rates are low, every extra penny on op costs comes out of your profit. Not an incentive for owners to take on.

That's before we consider how a ship that is bigger than it needs to be to carry cargo, has more onboard power than it needs to carry cargo would ever get past the IMO EEDI regs.......
 

endure

GCM
We appear to have come full circle again where commercial companies who exist to make a profit are being expected to shoulder some of the costs that the government is unwilling to stump up for.
 
We appear to have come full circle again where commercial companies who exist to make a profit are being expected to shoulder some of the costs that the government is unwilling to stump up for because the internet thinks we should have a huge shipbuilding industry.
FoC.
 

Yokel

LE
Although this is not about thread is not about new technologies, I think most contributors and readers would be keen to learn about marine propulsion and other technologies being produced or developed in Britain. Here is an all electric ferry developed in Plymouth:



Start small, get it working, and scale up....
 
Although this is not about thread is not about new technologies, I think most contributors and readers would be keen to learn about marine propulsion and other technologies being produced or developed in Britain. Here is an all electric ferry developed in Plymouth:



Start small, get it working, and scale up....

All well and good. However, in the land of endless fisk.....

MV ISLAND CRUSADER
 

Yokel

LE
All well and good. However, in the land of endless fisk.....

MV ISLAND CRUSADER

Hydrogen is not the only potential energy source for all electric propulsion. Anyway the Plymouth trial may be more concerned with small vessels such as the one shown.

I thought that the real advantage with electric propulsion is not so much the primary energy source as it was being able to save energy by running the plant at constant speed, and using power electronics to control motors - typically DC motors driven using Pulse Width Modulation.
 

Yokel

LE
RRS Sir David Attenborough is ready to start sea trials

"This vessel is a true celebration of British expertise - from the team who built it right through to the scientific community that will call this ship home," the company's David McGinley said. "The RRS Sir David Attenborough is the single biggest and most ambitious build in the history of Cammell Laird and it's an incredibly proud moment to see her embark on sea trials."

Polar survey vessels may be rare, but there is a market for hydrographic and oceanographic ships, and geophysical survey. I am assuming that the ultra quiet propulsion system borrows from warship technology, likewise the Moonpool.
 
Hydrogen is not the only potential energy source for all electric propulsion. Anyway the Plymouth trial may be more concerned with small vessels such as the one shown.

I thought that the real advantage with electric propulsion is not so much the primary energy source as it was being able to save energy by running the plant at constant speed, and using power electronics to control motors - typically DC motors driven using Pulse Width Modulation.

Without a doubt, the biggest issue coming at us is IMO2050 - which essentially means fuel after diesel. Nothing - and I do mean nothing - is going to be a more commercially valuable problem to sort. Electric propulsion is essentially old hat compared to that issue.
 
Polar survey vessels may be rare, but there is a market for hydrographic and oceanographic ships, and geophysical survey. I am assuming that the ultra quiet propulsion system borrows from warship technology, likewise the Moonpool.

There is such a market - and those nice senors at Friere (and elsewhere) do well out of it (see RRS Discovery).

Oceanographic & Offshore archivos | Freire Shipyard

Had there not been some "interesting" negotiations (allegedly), it's doubtful the nice lads at Lairds would have got that ship. Very glad they did, but don't mistake delivering one ship two years late for an open shot at the market. It would appear our shipbuilding Tsar is about to make that very same mistake.

Moonpool and propulsion very little if anything to do with warships. Standard offshore practice.
 

Yokel

LE
We have a shipbuilding tsar?

I was thinking of British companies that make hydrographic or oceanographic equipment, such as Valeport, Chelsea Technologies, Tritech....

BTW the Attenborough design includes the option of ultra quiet electrical propulsion for sensitive survey work. A bit like CODLAG perhaps?
 
We have a shipbuilding tsar?

I was thinking of British companies that make hydrographic or oceanographic equipment, such as Valeport, Chelsea Technologies, Tritech....

BTW the Attenborough design includes the option of ultra quiet electrical propulsion for sensitive survey work. A bit like CODLAG perhaps?

Yes. He's called the Secretary of State for Defence.

SDA has a relatively standard diesel electric plant. Nothing too exotic at all.
 

Yokel

LE
The UK Defence Journal reports that Ferguson shipyard is investing £500k in a new tower crane. You have to wonder what new work they are hoping for.

The 31-metre crane, with a maximum load of 16 tons and reach of 45 metres, was installed at the yard in 1983 and has supported the build of 50 vessels over the years by moving shipbuilding materials and giant sections of fabricated sheet metal. The replacement crane, designed and manufactured by Spanish firm Jaso and delivered by Norfolk-based Falcon Cranes, will stand taller at 42 metres.

It will have a maximum load of 24 tons and reach of 70 metres, offering Ferguson more scope to move material and equipment within the yard.
 
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