Army Rumour Service

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Commercial shipbuilding - why not in the UK?

The senior roles are to try and win work - they're mostly BD. You won't be seeing any increase in production workforce like welders until that work is a racing certainty. Even then, it's a tiny fraction of what you need to build a ship.

Suspect the painters are for a bunch of winter commercial refits that ferry companies etc will be doing while traffic is relatively low.
 
The senior roles are to try and win work - they're mostly BD. You won't be seeing any increase in production workforce like welders until that work is a racing certainty. Even then, it's a tiny fraction of what you need to build a ship.

Suspect the painters are for a bunch of winter commercial refits that ferry companies etc will be doing while traffic is relatively low.
I was under the impression the underground gas storage at Islandmagee was being manufactured in Harland and Wolff and assembled onsite. That was the plan to grow the workforce into the hundreds in future with the Frigate work etc, hopefully coming further down the line behind that.
 
The gas tanks is the main one - steelworkers primarily, though I'd be very surprised if in the hundreds.

Ain't going to be any frigate work.
 
The gas tanks is the main one - steelworkers primarily, though I'd be very surprised if in the hundreds.

Ain't going to be any frigate work.
That was the plan from last year from what I remember, when Infrastrata took over. The Solid Support Ships I should've said.

Was there ever a contract signed between the different fims when H&W was involved in the winning bid for the Type 31?
 

Yokel

LE
I am not entirely sure how much of it relates to shipbuilding per se, but this caught my eye:

UKHO launches new innovation programme to support development of the Blue Economy

The UK Hydrographic Office has launched its new ADMIRALTY Marine Innovation Programme, the organisation announced today. Spearheaded by the UKHO’s Research, Design and Innovation team and RE_SET, the programme will give innovators and start-ups a chance to develop new solutions that solve some of the world’s most pressing challenges when it comes to our oceans.

The launch of this programme follows extensive research commissioned by the UK Hydrographic Office into the Blue Economy, which is estimated to be worth £3.2 trillion by the year 2030. Marine geospatial data will play an essential role in supporting this growth by enabling the identification of new areas for tidal and wind energy generation, supporting safe navigation for larger autonomous ships, playing a vital role in mitigating the effects of climate change, and more.

Successful innovation programme participants will develop their own solutions for these areas, using ADMIRALTY data sets that range from seabed composition samples and bathymetric profiles of the seafloor, to tidal and navigational information. Entrants to some challenges will also work alongside leading experts in research, design and development at the UKHO, with winners receiving an opportunity to launch their products into some of the world’s fastest growing marine sectors.
 

Yokel

LE
Just a thought....

The Government has committed to ambitious targets for cutting carbon dioxide emissions, meaning we need to cutting road traffic. The Government has also committed to a resurgence of shipbuilding. Why not move long distance road freight to a fleet of small vessels that can be built in the UK?
 
Just a thought....

The Government has committed to ambitious targets for cutting carbon dioxide emissions, meaning we need to cutting road traffic. The Government has also committed to a resurgence of shipbuilding. Why not move long distance road freight to a fleet of small vessels that can be built in the UK?

2 points....

marine diesels are some of the most polluting things known to man.
how do you get stuff to and from these ports?
 

Yokel

LE
2 points....

marine diesels are some of the most polluting things known to man.
how do you get stuff to and from these ports?

Coastal and similar shipping was mentioned in terms of potential. If a ship can carry a thousand lorry loads of stuff from say Edinburgh to Southampton, surely it produces less CO2 than a thousand diesel lorry engines?

As for your second point, short lorry distances will not produce as much CO2 as ones from one end of the country to the other.
 

merchantman

War Hero
Just a thought....

The Government has committed to ambitious targets for cutting carbon dioxide emissions, meaning we need to cutting road traffic. The Government has also committed to a resurgence of shipbuilding. Why not move long distance road freight to a fleet of small vessels that can be built in the UK?

Coastal shipping was quite big business around the UK until the '60's - '70's with the advent of motorways. They carried all sorts of crap, the small ports used have by now largely been gentrified and turned into trendy residential estates, marinas or built over. With the advent of low sulphur fuels not sure how the pollution argument stacks up

Dirty British coaster with a salt-caked smoke stack,
Butting through the Channel in the mad March days,
With a cargo of Tyne coal,
Road-rails, pig-lead,
Firewood, iron-ware, and cheap tin trays.

John Masefield
 
Coastal and similar shipping was mentioned in terms of potential. If a ship can carry a thousand lorry loads of stuff from say Edinburgh to Southampton, surely it produces less CO2 than a thousand diesel lorry engines

why is the cargo going to Southampton for onwards transshipment to Edinburgh?
Why would it not go to Liverpool or Immingham that have excellent road and rail links to Scotland?

As for your second point, short lorry distances will not produce as much CO2 as ones from one end of the country to the other.

very little freight is driven direct from one end of the country to the other, most of it is via point to point distribution networks. A short truck journey produces the same CO2/tonne mile as long ones.

it simply doesn’t make economic sense to drive from Birmingham to Immingham, put it on a ship, sail it to Grangemouth, take it off the ship, and drive it to Edinburgh. By the time youve done that, the trucks been to Edinburgh and come back.

ships are only efficient in bulk, that’s why Containers stormed the market, break bulk cargo was hellishly expensive and inefficient way of moving goods, and it’s slow, days, not hours, and trucks are not constrained by tides.

most inland freight is pallet sized loads. That’s efficient to move by road, vans and trucks are designed around the pallet and with side loading, you can have a mixed cargo with no loss of loading efficiency.

back in the ‘good old days’, a small break bulk coaster could spend days in each port loading and unloading, but a LOT of that time was rearranging cargo so it was at the top for the next port.
unloading a 10,000 tonne mixed general cargo ship could take up to a week.
 
With a cargo of Tyne coal,
Road-rails, pig-lead,
Firewood, iron-ware, and cheap tin trays.

a typical coasters load, and all the fun that brought.
one hold with coal, no other cargo can go in it, and it will need a deep clean after the filthy unload.
rails and lead need to go at the bottom, firewood and retail goods above.
but, the rails coming out at the next port, so all the light cargo has to come out to get at it, but you then need need to move the lead too to balance your load, so all the firewood comes out too.
very manpower intensive work, long shift for the bigger than modern ships crew, plus you had to hire in the now non existent stevedores too.

10,000 tonne break bulk cargo ship. Crew of 40-60, plus 100 stevedores to unload/load it.
10,000 tonne short sea container ship. Crew of 19, a crane driver to unload it.
 

endure

GCM
a typical coasters load, and all the fun that brought.
one hold with coal, no other cargo can go in it, and it will need a deep clean after the filthy unload.
rails and lead need to go at the bottom, firewood and retail goods above.
but, the rails coming out at the next port, so all the light cargo has to come out to get at it, but you then need need to move the lead too to balance your load, so all the firewood comes out too.
very manpower intensive work, long shift for the bigger than modern ships crew, plus you had to hire in the now non existent stevedores too.

10,000 tonne break bulk cargo ship. Crew of 40-60, plus 100 stevedores to unload/load it.
10,000 tonne short sea container ship. Crew of 19, a crane driver to unload it.


One of these and you didn't even need a shoreside crane as we carried/drove our own. All you needed were a few tractor/trailer units from shoreside.

SHP_SAN_778_Opal Bounty 05-09-82 resize (1).jpg
 
Just a thought....

The Government has committed to ambitious targets for cutting carbon dioxide emissions, meaning we need to cutting road traffic. The Government has also committed to a resurgence of shipbuilding. Why not move long distance road freight to a fleet of small vessels that can be built in the UK?

There's a fair bit of preliminary work going on in that area - BUT - to the best of my knowledge its aspirational at the minute. Photex makes perfectly valid points re nature of cargoes up, down and around UK - as in the relatively small tonnages moved largely between intermediate destinations. That's the bit where the economics will be challenging.

However, there is a congestion argument to be made as well as GHG reduction. HS2 may invalidate some of that, but coastal highways are definitely on peoples radar. It's also possible for short sea Ro-Ro to use non GHG fuels or propulsion and that might - just might - allow relatively simple cargo ferries to be built in UK. That said, we're starting from a position of weakness compared to Damen et al. They already have designs up and running - and as the big boy on the block, they're going to take some shifting.
 
My observation on coastal shipping; almost everything we move is time sensitive. Modern business works just-in-time because the last thing you want is inventory set around tying up working capital.
 
This argument about moving freight onto ships or trains always misses the point that a truck needs one driver to traverse UK.
Put the load on a ship, you need a truck and driver at each end of the journey. Ditto with rail.
Add breakages/ spillages/ theft at each change point, and it quickly becomes obvious why road all the way is the most economic method of transport.
 
90% rule applies

90% of the U.K. population lives within 4 hours driving time of Birmingham, as are all the main container ports.
90% of the UK population lives within 1 hour driving time of a motorway .
 

Chalkythedog

Old-Salt
Appallingly bad management, which bred militant, bloody-minded unions. That's why there's no ship building in the UK
 
This argument about moving freight onto ships or trains always misses the point that a truck needs one driver to traverse UK.
Put the load on a ship, you need a truck and driver at each end of the journey. Ditto with rail.
Add breakages/ spillages/ theft at each change point, and it quickly becomes obvious why road all the way is the most economic method of transport.
Where we're going, the trucks will not need drivers. Possibly the Ro/ro ships as well.
 

Latest Threads

Top