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CMCQ or SAA

#1
Hi folks - just joined this fine forum. :D

I have a question I hope some of you can answer! I want to become a SAA instructor as my unit is so woefully short of qualified guys that we usually have to borrow someone from another unit on shooting weekends!!

A web search has thrown up this site from the LDRTC -

http://www.army.mod.uk/ldrtc/saa_cell/index.htm

- offering the CMCQ course. Is this the same or similar to the course offered at Brecon, or is it a lesser qualification? The main advantage for me is that it runs over a couple of weekends rather than the two weeks at Brecon.

I cant find any info for the Brecon course and the link ( www.atra.mod.uk/atra/I.../index.htm ) provided in other posts on this site seems to be dead!

Any help much apreciated.
 
#2
Identify your aim - run ranges or teach weapons and run ranges.

If it's just run ranges, it's RMQs you want.

If it's stink of gun oil, play with guns and runranges it's SAA (plus you get a nice little badge too!)

Enjoy the site - you'll never be the same again!
 
#3
the CMCQ course allows you to coach whilst on the ranges, it also allows you to take WHT's.

it does NOT allow you to teach any weapon leason's, for that you will need to go and do the SAA course at the IBS.

i hope that makes things clearer for you

also here is a link for IBS

your SPSI should have a list of dates
 
#4
Thanks guys.

The aim is to take WHT's at unit shooting and MATTs w/ends and to coach those who always seem to fail them. We don't really have a need to teach weapons as such, that will have been done in recruits courses, MPC courses etc.

So I guess I just want to stink of gun oil and play with guns for the moment, running ranges can wait as the LDRTC also do a RMQ over weekends too!
 
#5
the thing is with the CMCQ course you can ONLY take the WHT's, for remedial training you have to have done the SAA course.

your SPSI should have informed you of this, thats if you went to see him :)
 
#6
About 10 years ago the SAA Inst Course gave you SAA Inst and SA (B) 90 range Qualification.

However they have now split this out
CMCQ For Range saftey and Coaching (run by BSTT's)
RMQ to Run Ranges (min LCPL I believe) (run by BSTT)
SAA Inst at Brecon to train and test on weapons systems (run by SASC at Brecon) however you no longer get the SA(B) 90 on this course. It was felt that it brain fcuked the attendees and they were not wrong!

Any NCO should try at achieve all if possible and to be of any use in later life

Cheers
 
#7
Thanks again guys - plenty of food for thought there.

Ultimately I'll get fully qualified, its just that I'd prefer to do it over a string of weekends rather than the one two week TA leave period I get from my employer and miss yet another camp with my unit (I did MPC(A) this year).

I will be discussing these options with my PSI and the officer running our forthcomming shooting weekend, just need to get my head round it all first!!!
 
#8
I did the TA SAA course in 1998 and you also got the CMCQ on the range phase, so you get both as an SAA instructor....

Hope this helps....
 
#9
I did the TA SAA course in 1998 and you also got the CMCQ on the range phase, so you get both as an SAA instructor....

Hope this helps....
 
#10
Seems you also picked up a stutter as well Merlin :D , if your just wanting to coach and take WHT's believe me do the CMCQ course, cos the SAA(short) course is NOT fun, fcukin hours spent walking round in boxers and t-shirt reading from a pam in an empty shower room at 3 in the morning is NOT for the faint of heart :x , and then after all that the baskets dont pick you for that lesson that day.........fffffffffffffffffffffffffffcccccccccccccuuuuukk
I spammed my m8 for it one year and he returned the serve the year after, a gr8 career course but a complete head wrecker :p .

Faugh-A-Ballagh
 
#11
I did this years All Arms SAA (TA) course, and it was 2 weeks of very little sleep, lots of studying and lots of writing....

The course DOES give you the same qualification as the CMCQ course, as well as the Skillies qualification. I did the CMCQ 2 months before the SAA, only to find I had to go through it all again.

Regarding the SAA course though, I found the best way to prep for the lessons (you get told one day that you MAY be teaching a lesson the next day, and have to know the contents of the PAM by heart) was to write the whole lot out longhand, including prelims etc., then read it back to yourself a number of times while pacing the floor. I think I averaged about 3 hours sleep a night for the entire 2 weeks!!

If you need any more info regarding the course (which is run once a year, down in sunny Brecon), then give me a shout by PM. I know a lot of people on ARRSE gave me advice before I went, and its only fair I pass the favour on.

Regards

MnDJ
 
#12
Does anyone know if any of the BSTTs are running the CMCQ & RMQ courses over a series of weekends in 2009/10? Or are the qualifications only gained from the 2 week course these days?

The Regimental training clerk cannot find anything on the courses forecast.

Any help appreciated.
 
#13
I cannot speak for any other RTC, but 4Div RTC (SE) runs weekend based CMCQ and RMQ courses.

One point that no one has mentioned here is that before attending an RMQ course you will have to be CMCQ qualified.
 
#14
fallingplate said:
One point that no one has mentioned here is that before attending an RMQ course you will have to be CMCQ qualified.
[marq=up]

And that the CMCQ is only valid for two years - if you can't get on an RMQ course before those two years (minimum rank of CPL), you've got to do it again.
 
#17
Bleng said:
Does anyone know if any of the BSTTs are running the CMCQ & RMQ courses over a series of weekends in 2009/10? Or are the qualifications only gained from the 2 week course these days?

The Regimental training clerk cannot find anything on the courses forecast.

Any help appreciated.
He's not looking hard enough then!
BSTT's no longer exist, they are now RTC's (Regional Training Centre's).
Try checking on the Army website, some RTC's post course dates there. If not, there will at least be a contact number.
 
#18
FFBox said:
RTC(Scotland) run CMCQ and RMQ over weekends also.
Which I have just finished this month.

You will be assessed on taking a WHT, a 100% pass safety written test closed book and an open book(ish) test on coaching.

There were a couple of MPGS guys on the course who were less than impressed that they don't get the WHT phase as they only require the course as a step up to RMQ and not a stand alone course.

Some guys travelled to Edinburgh from the south of England due to lack of availability elsewhere, phone RTC (Scotland) and I'm sure they'll supply dates etc.
 
#20
Did the SAA course at Brecon two years ago, briiliant course but a bit of a head wrecker true, nice to have it all flooding back after reading a few of these posts.

My bit of advice is do the CMCQ more time to take it in and you get to spend quality time really learning your stuff there, I felt Brecon paid lip service to it and anyway your head is all focused on your lessons.

Then do the SAA course so you are properly prepared for that part of the course and you can concentrate on getting a good pass.


As for needing the qual you certainly do as most of the blokes need quite a bit of remedial training to get them through the WHT tests so you may as well be able to do both. As for blokes being trained properly there is quite a bit of variance on that, don't believe the hype. I spent a weekend on a Bde rct trg weeked and they had been told all sorts, glad I had the Pam in the daysack so I was vindicated in what I was teaching. Being in a Corps I never really picked up enough experience in marksmanship training so I never really felt I was as good as I can be in the coaching side of the business.

And yes it is nice to have the SAA qual because you are the subject matter expert and if I didn't have it the other CMCQ people with rank would try to pull it, having the SAA qual means you have an upper hand - of course if you aren't a complete throbber and you can do the stuff. We had guys pass the WHT by CMCQ qualled guys, we'd take them through it and could drive holes through it, no dramas we'd reteach and then retest.

Either way you need to watch out for skill fade or you will drop your own standards. Please PM if I can hep more.
 
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