Class 1 vms how much lower can the standards go?

#1
I dont know if it is me, but it seems that some of the people going on their class 1 courses nowdays would be better employed cleaning up plates in the cookhouse, just seems to be more nuggets than i used to recall seeing after courses, i aint the worlds best vm by far, but i can sort out most problems without having to resort to giving a vague EFR then fcukin the kit off, but i know for a fact that a mate of mine was telling me that some bird at his unit took 29 hrs to change a wolf l/r clutch and to top it she is on her class 1 soon, but not only that i have seen some nuggets that are new class 1's that i would rather entrust the job to my used sweaty socks after a session in the gym. Are the standards that much lower these days or am i just unfortunate in meeting some of the biggest inbreds in the corp in such a short space of time?
 
#2
Are you saying WDIJ that you have never had a job go wrong? Do you know the exact circumstances that went with that job? Why do women always get a bad press? I know for a fact that if that was a bloke it would just get laughed off. Being a female class 1 Vm myself this really gets my goat. As for the standards of class 1's yes the standard is going down but I think SEME can take some blame for that.
 
#3
kerryla said:
As for the standards of class 1's yes the standard is going down but I think SEME can take some blame for that.
I transferred into REME from the Engineers.
I went straight onto a class 1 VM course & was gobsmacked that it was 'the done thing' to cheat on the exams. There where loads of 'cheat pencils' being handed from course to course. I'm all for initiative, but one guy used the wrong fecking pencil on one exam & ended up failing - I know he could scraped a pass if he'd done the exam properly.
Speaking of passing - one of the exams in the Kremlin (materials technology possibly?) had a pass mark of 40% ! Yep you read it right - 40% How the feck can you get 60% (more than half) of the exam wrong & still pass? - It beggars belief.


TTFN

BFG
 
#4
BFG 9000 said:
I transferred into REME from the Engineers.
I went straight onto a class 1 VM course & was gobsmacked that it was 'the done thing' to cheat on the exams. There where loads of 'cheat pencils' being handed from course to course.
Shhh!!!!

Keep it to yourself mate...nowbody else knows.

This is infact initial Tiffy training, preparing the student for the intense cse of cheating and exam resits, so that the individual can be thrust unto the wider Army having actually learnt f@ck all from the cse except how to bluff.
 
#5
How very dare you soldier 1 !!!!!!!!!!!!! Theres a lot more to tiffy courses than you think, winning the bike race up the hill for tea and toast, making sure you in the mess for happy hour on friday and not leaving till saturday.........................................ahh go on tony pour us another :wink:
 
#6
Why did you automatically assume that i was singling out women kerry? just because i gave one example where there was a woman involved whoopy doo da?So what it was a woman involved but all it was is an example, if you want one with a bloke then i can tell you about some lad who told a cfn class 2 to cable tie an air valve to a drops chassis instead of bolting it as couldnt find the holes.... that good enough? Yes i have had jobs go wrong but it never took me 29 hrs to change a landrover gearbox, i mean ffs i have changed a 8 tonne engine in less time than that with so called problems and yes maybe i am not looking at all the facts, but from past experience and i think i have a little bit, i have done gearboxes and engines etc and 29 hrs is taking the utter piss from someone who is supposed to be experienced enough to be going on there class 1 course and expected to teach people who are fresh out of trg when they get to unit etc. But hey... if you think 29hrs to change a gearbox is acceptable then hey be my guest but i wont ask for u if i need a casrep. And just to clear things up i do actually know the bird that my mate is talking about and no i am not singling women out again, but from my buddy tells me i wouldnt trust her to butter my toast.
 
#8
BFG 9000 said:
I went straight onto a class 1 VM course & was gobsmacked that it was 'the done thing' to cheat on the exams. There where loads of 'cheat pencils' being handed from course to course. I'm all for initiative, but one guy used the wrong fecking pencil on one exam & ended up failing - I know he could scraped a pass if he'd done the exam properly.
Speaking of passing - one of the exams in the Kremlin (materials technology possibly?) had a pass mark of 40% ! Yep you read it right - 40% How the feck can you get 60% (more than half) of the exam wrong & still pass? - It beggars belief.

The Guards have bearskins, the Light Division do all that unusual drill, the Gloucesters have the back-badge, the PWRR have that tiger patch.

The REME have cheating in exams. It's tradition.

I believe that it was an honour bestowed upon the corps by George V after El Alamein, the 8th Army was looking so good after the defeat of the Afrika Korps through armour that the VMs, ECEs and Gunfitters simply overstated their contribution the battle readiness of the kit and got promotions, tea and medals all round.

It was declared from that day forth that our corps was no longer to be subject to the constraints of the bureaucracy of having to prove one's ability - and it should simply be taken for granted.

Churchill wrote in his diaries:

"They are a bunch of lazy, cheating swine with more luck than artifice. However, for want of them there shall be none else to make excuses that the kit does not function,"
 
#9
WhyDidIJoin said:
but from past experience and i think i have a little bit,.......... from my buddy tells me i wouldnt trust her to butter my toast.
IMHO This thread might have opened a better debate if the examples and opinions were from your own experience. It is often better to wait and draw your own conclusions about personal strengths and weaknesses rather than rely on info from a buddy. It also pays to have all the facts to hand prior to drawing those conclusions.
 
#10
I agree the standards of Class 1 VM's have dropped whether male or female we all get the same training!! remember the contractor is paid on an output level and it matters very little to them if those students are poorly trained, that comes down to us in the field force to take that hit and rectify it!! and its not just restricted to VM's friends of mine tell me other trade groups are in a similar position.

Regarding the comments on cheating if you need to go down that road then you are in the wrong job!! you will be found out in due course chances are when its dark, late & piddling down!! if i found out you did not know the elementary stuff of your trade be prepared for incoming!!

Perhaps the cheating is linked to lowering of the REME educational entry standard which was done becaue of recruiting problems hey you decide!! Any comments?
 
#11
Well, I’m sure we have all had jobs that have gone horribly wrong, not only as craftys but as class 1’s too. I’m a big believer of ‘repair it rather than replace it’. Doing things this way obviously takes a little more time to rectify faults (if the spare is in stock!) however when one of the younger lads/lasses asks you how something works, you can sit down and explain to them in detail, and what the best practice for repair is! The bad mechanics among us are the people who answer every question with “Go look in the book…. That’s what its there for!” (now what sort of guidence is that!)

If, as you say it took 29 hours to change a major assembly on a rover then why the hell didn’t anyone give her a hand? It’s easy to point and laugh at someone when they are struggling but you have just answered your own question there! :?

When I Ran the shop floor I had 2 sayings

1. “Every day is a school day”
2. “There is only one way to learn….. and that’s the hard way”

A little cheesy I know, but very true in the world of mechanics!
If the full screws (competent ones!) in the fitter sections took the time out to give some guidance and pass on their knowledge we wouldn’t have the low standards that you are implying. :scratch:
 
#12
Thread_Bear said:
If the full screws (competent ones!) in the fitter sections took the time out to give some guidance and pass on their knowledge we wouldn’t have the low standards that you are implying. :scratch:
All well and good matey, but how many hats do you want him/her to wear?

Oh yeh....kerryla.....you always get a bad press due to the fact you are renowned for being shite at VMing and anything else remotely linked to using yer mits and brain together :)
 
#13
Maybe one of the problems is the apparent urgency to get people upgraded instead of getting them upskilled. In my day (here we go again) late 50s early 60s it was not uncommon for a VMIII to be in the job for 4 or 5 years before being sent on an upgrading and it was known to b eanother 3 years as VMII before going on VMI. Also in that period there was more emphasis on repair and less on replacement. I'm not saying we were better VM s but we were definitely a different type.Perhaps if pay was set by time in ntrade rather than simply by trade tests the whole attitude would change.
My career path was pretty typical of the time. Passed VMII early 1960, took and passed VMII 1965, took and passed VMI 1968. No I never took and failed a trade test I was never put forward for one due to operational commitments.
 
#14
Soldier1(UK) said:
BFG 9000 said:
I transferred into REME from the Engineers.
I went straight onto a class 1 VM course & was gobsmacked that it was 'the done thing' to cheat on the exams. There where loads of 'cheat pencils' being handed from course to course.
Shhh!!!!

Keep it to yourself mate...nowbody else knows.

This is infact initial Tiffy training, preparing the student for the intense cse of cheating and exam resits, so that the individual can be thrust unto the wider Army having actually learnt f@ck all from the cse except how to bluff.
Cheating is such an emotive word. I prefer to use the term "directed revision". :D
 
#15
i fear we are own worst enemy, due to a lack of man power lads are now not able to spend the time teaching and showing the younger less experienced the tricks of the trade, we are now purley results and time motivated.

this has now lead to the scenario of, tiff to full screw" there is a landrover on its way in with brake problems i want it sorted by end of play" result is full screw does job young un sweeps up and fetches, landrover fixed, tiff happy, young un learns sod all.

we must as full screws take responsibility and not give class 3s there class 2 till they are read, and tifffs must develop a spine and back full screw up when said class 3 complains and ASM questions why he has been refused class 2

borden in turn must raise standards and move back to the days when a 60% pass overall was expected and the norm not something speacial and yes the answer to the original question is a most deffinite yes standards are lower.
 
#16
I agree standards are lower, have you ever heard the saying "you cant teach cheese" ? Well you have now, i have tried showing lads when i can (in between sorting out health and safety pap, sorting out STTE demands and all the other kak that i get spammed with) how to do jobs and at end of the day if someone has the intelligence of a mushroom then you aint gonna get anywhere as they come back next time get same job asking same bone questions instead of looking at job and thinking through what needs to be done and trying it. As for the chick with the 29hr land speed record for changing a gearbox she got help in the end, but point is she should be experienced enough to look at a job and figure out what need to be done, oh right thats she got her l/cpl for playing footy for the corp, never mind!! lets face everyone else must have been told to sort a job out and no other fcuker has a clue what to do and its a case of suck it and see, so why cant the nuggets learn that, i normally tell the nuggets to read the AESP's figure out how it goes together for themselves then come back when they really stuck, and if it ends up being another bone question go and cry in the corner.
 
#17
All well and good matey, but how many hats do you want him/her to wear?

This.... as a full screw should be the first hat to put on. Essentially you are managing the shop floor. I know the man power is getting less and less but when all is said and done we are providing the craftys with an apprenticeship. god knows why we stopped the apprenticeships because craftys are turning up to units knowing just enough to be dangerous!
 
#18
It's not just class 1's and it's not just VM's, and it's certainly not a new problem.

In 1991 or two, a new tiffy weapons arrived at my unit and summoned me, a Class 2 Cfn Gunbodger to PP&C to "talk him through Challenger". He knew nothing, I siht you not. I was stunned.

I also learned to be very independent too. I hated taking him on jobs with me because he would carry on like a child, flicking switches and pushing buttons etc.

I could change a Chall traverse box on my own in a little under 6 hours, the book said 8. He could make it last 4 days, and did once at Soltau. He actually broke a Challenger after lifting the turret and mating it with the rings out of alignment. 10 hours in the wrecking, and 6 weeks for me to put things right, while he went off to play corps golf and worry about his Confidential.

Chin up kiddies, we waded through the mire before you did, and those who follow you will do the same.

To the Regiment... I'm glad I'm not there!!
 
#19
Sqn_Barman said:
In 1991 or two, a new tiffy weapons arrived at my unit and summoned me, a Class 2 Cfn Gunbodger to PP&C to "talk him through Challenger". He knew nothing, I siht you not. I was stunned.
Why were you stunned. Was the tiffy an ex-cellar dweller. If so the sum total of his Challenger experience was probably about 2 weeks of Bordon tuition.
 
#20
Cretin said:
The REME have cheating in exams. It's tradition

In '81 when I did my Basics at SEE, nobody on our course cheated. I don't know if happened on other courses but I certainly didn't know about it. If you failed and failed again you were kicked out. SEE carried out it's threats and it focussed the attention. The passmark was 60% and you had the results read out in reverse order of merit. I remember sh1tting myself as the marks came down to 64% and my name had still not been read out and wishing I hadn't been on the p1ss for the last 3 nights.

Back on upgraders in '86 and cheating was de rigeur. At the time, the tiffy course cheating was legendary. I seem to remember that after I left in '87, there was a tiffy course caught cheating and the sh1t hit the fan. Apparently they had to perform the exams sat in a circle thereafter. I don't know if that's true, but it's what filtered down through the grapevine.
 

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