Civvies in uniform!

#1
Is the army turning into the RAF or what? How do guys come straight from civvie street into the army and get promoted to Full Screw without doing any sort of cadre or Jnr Managers course or CLM package for over a year?

I agree that for retention purposes certain trades should be given a financial incentive, but to let some of these abominations in charge of private soldiers is scary.

If these guys go to Iraq, Private soldiers will be looking up to these guys for support and advice, even tho the Screw only has the same basic soldiering knowledge taught in basic trg as the Private!

Am i the onlyone that thinks this is wrong and totally irresponsible?
 
#3
Richierichcrx said:
Don't NCO's fulfill the role of interface between those newly commissioned and the other ranks?
You're right but i'm not quite seeing the relevance with the point i was making?!
 
#4
im_a_mong_cpl said:
Is the army turning into the RAF or what? How do guys come straight from civvie street into the army and get promoted to Full Screw without doing any sort of cadre or Jnr Managers course or CLM package for over a year?
Indeed. I am one of those abominations! Yes, they had to give us some form of financial incentive (which still didn't match up) & no, i didn't get a JMQC till i had been in for 18mnths.

mong, you obviously have an opinion on this. . . .what would you suggest they do with us?
 
#5
Yes sorry about that. I was fixated by the thought of them being in Iraq and having to make life-taking decisions. You're right about the lack of management training etc. We suffer this in Higher Education where we have Curriculum Managers with no people skills let alone mgt. skills being promoted because they need the higher salary for mortgages etc. Lack of joined up thinking by higher management and HR Depts. Your issue is more serious because lives are at risk.
 
#6
Richierichcrx said:
Yes sorry about that. I was fixated by the thought of them being in Iraq and having to make life-taking decisions. You're right about the lack of management training etc. We suffer this in Higher Education where we have Curriculum Managers with no people skills let alone mgt. skills being promoted because they need the higher salary for mortgages etc. Lack of joined up thinking by higher management and HR Depts. Your issue is more serious because lives are at risk.
What the feck are you talking about?

Stop waffling sh!te & either add soemthing to the thread, or shut the feck up!
 
#7
What Corps are we talking here? Signals, RMP, REME, INT?
 
#8
gado said:
im_a_mong_cpl said:
Is the army turning into the RAF or what? How do guys come straight from civvie street into the army and get promoted to Full Screw without doing any sort of cadre or Jnr Managers course or CLM package for over a year?
Indeed. I am one of those abominations! Yes, they had to give us some form of financial incentive (which still didn't match up) & no, i didn't get a JMQC till i had been in for 18mnths.

mong, you obviously have an opinion on this. . . .what would you suggest they do with us?
I agree it's a tricky situation! As far as i'm concerned people shouldn't be given rank if they don't know how to conduct themselves accordingly or essentially they have no trg in managing people.

Also, nurses who do their trg within the army spend 3 years doing their trg and don't do anything military and that is used as an excuse for not putting them on their juniors cadre straight away. Soldier first and all that, nurses should do continuous military trg while at uni. ITD's must be done annually!

As far as people who join straight up are concerned, some sort of financial incentive without the rank at first should be in place. like i said previously it's quite scary to think that these people will be in charge of others in potentially hostile situations.

I'm not saying that these people will be in charge of infantry toms but if an infanty tom in an operational theatre will look up to the rank for advice not the person!
 
#9
devilish said:
What Corps are we talking here? Signals, RMP, REME, INT?
The corps you mention all have to do JNCO courses to get the rank even if it is quite early on in their mil career.

I'm mainly talking about the AMS and that's not just nurses! Dental do it also.
 
#10
Well, I'm a techie medic. I brought 8years post qual experience with me to the army & they have exploited that (I actually don't blame them for that, it's sound business sense). I have been dong my job for longer than some of the SSgt's, but I didn't have the military skills behind me. In Iraq, I will be doing that job, not tabbing through jungles, not setting ambuses, but doing the job I am trained and qualified to do.
 
#11
im_a_mong_cpl said:
devilish said:
What Corps are we talking here? Signals, RMP, REME, INT?
The corps you mention all have to do JNCO courses to get the rank even if it is quite early on in their mil career.

I'm mainly talking about the AMS and that's not just nurses! Dental do it also.
In the AMS, we are all ACPL's till we have passed our JMQC & they do keep us very sheltered until this promotion course is complete.
 
#12
I have no doubt that you will be doing you're job and i'm sure you do it very well (mops up the creamy white dribble!). However everyone with 2 tapes on their chest is looked at the same by the toms, especially those with little to no experience in the green army. There will be people looking to nurses, techs, dental techs, etc etc for advice and basic management skills, but what are they going to recieve?
 
#13
im_a_mong_cpl said:
I have no doubt that you will be doing you're job and i'm sure you do it very well (mops up the creamy white dribble!). However everyone with 2 tapes on their chest is looked at the same by the toms, especially those with little to no experience in the green army. There will be people looking to nurses, techs, dental techs, etc etc for advice and basic management skills, but what are they going to recieve?
advice and basic management skills! just cause you haven't been in the army for 10 years, doesn't mean you have no common sense. Most of the long term Cpl's I've met cuff it anyway. There is alot to be said for initiative.

ACpl, straight from uni V 10yrs served thick as mince? No contest really.
 
#14
So you dont think someone who has done the equivelent of an Armourers course(time wise, before anyone starts) is not entitled to a rank and pay structure to match their training? When, and I'm being serious here, do you ever envisage a full screw dental nurse needing to give fire control orders in a battle situation?

I'd rather they were fully trained in their field and able to administer my treatment than fcuking worry about wether or not they can quote 6 section battle drills to me!
 
#15
devilish said:
I'd rather they were fully trained in their field and able to administer my treatment than fcuking worry about wether or not they can quote 6 section battle drills to me!
Excellently put, very eloquent too. (me & you could be friends :wink: )
 
#16
gado said:
devilish said:
I'd rather they were fully trained in their field and able to administer my treatment than fcuking worry about wether or not they can quote 6 section battle drills to me!
Excellently put, very eloquent too. (me & you could be friends :wink: )
Right, hesitant tho i am to get into a battle with two eloquent JNCO's, i'll carry on regardless! You're right in saying that nurses shouldn't need to be quoting battle drills to people. However, there is a lot more to being a JNCO and essentially being in charge of people than that.

JNCO courses teach people to manage people under pressure. A nurse or a med tech may well be in a situation where they need to take charge when rounds are going down. I know that if i had gone down in a battle situation and the pressure was on, i'd pick the nurse that's trained to be a JNCO and has been shown to cope under a little bit of pressure before, over the one that's got no mil leadership experience, every time!

Some one who has been trained to do a job in civvie street, joins the army and gets rank without proving they have any military skills or shown any form of leadership under pressure, is still of a civilian mindset. Just because someone wears combats does not make them a Junior Military Leader even if your average tom sees two tapes and expects it of them.
 
#17
Mong, I think if we are relying on nurses to take charge when the rounds are coming down we are all in the sh#t anyway. Accept the fact that they and other professionals - like Gado have been given rank to reflect their technical skill and ability in employment.

If all tech Cpls took 8 years to get to Cpl, we would n't have any as they would be approaching retirement age !
 
#18
devilish said:
When, and I'm being serious here, do you ever envisage a full screw dental nurse needing to give fire control orders in a battle situation?
Probably never, but that one time in a million, you'd better hope the c*nt can give the correct orders...what happened to soldier first tradesman second ?

edirted to add: Not a dig at gado
 
#19
BRAINDRAIN said:
Mong, I think if we are relying on nurses to take charge when the rounds are coming down we are all in the sh#t anyway. Accept the fact that they and other professionals - like Gado have been given rank to reflect their technical skill and ability in employment.

If all tech Cpls took 8 years to get to Cpl, we would n't have any as they would be approaching retirement age !
Not at any point did i say it had anything to do with time served! I came out of training with rank, but we had to do a juniors cadre before they'd let us go. One girl remained at our depot for 2 years cos of injury even tho she was trade trained. In that time, remaining as a Pte soldier, she went to Iraq, Falklands, Balkans as well as many exercises. But they still didnt give her rank as she had not proved that she can do her job under pressure, in charge of bodies.

My point was not that a nurse would have to take charge of an infantry section if the shit hit the fan. My point was that they may have to take charge of their own domain, and that still takes military leadership skills.

Soldier first tradesman second.
 
#20
I may be a little out of my depth here , but here is my 2 pennies worth . All that ''a soldier first'' stuff is all recruiting crap . Its been said several times on this thread that why does a medic tech , dental tech etc have to cover the stuff you may do on jnco cadres . I for one would have no dramas in seeking advice from a full screw dental tech/med tech on matters they are professionally qualified to advise on . I dont care if they know what ''an arty fire mission'' intails or how many rounds of 5.56 link the section minimi gunner carries. Of course a basic understanding of very basic ''Army stuff'' is required . Lets worry about our own jobs , courses , careers , and let the tech's whatever trade they are worry about theres . As long as they dont tell me my job , who cares .
 

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