Civil Service "Officer" Grades

#1
Does anyone have any idea on what basis they set up the "Equivalent Rank" for civil servants vs commisioned Officers ?

Its a joke. "D" grade = Captain. C2 = Major, C1 = Lt Col etc.

Is it supposed to offset their poor pay or what ? Its certainly no genuine reflection of their abilities.

Methinks its time for a re-grade - Do to that equivalence table what was done to the CR grading system when OJAR came in. No more "High Excellent" - just a solid B.

Maybe the CS could retain their "officer" status for the Mess, but no-way should they be considered as "out-ranking" war-fighting commissioned officers.

Thoughts ?
 
#2
You missed these:

E1 Admin Officer = SSgt - WO1
E2 Admin Asst = LCpl - Sgt

It has something to do with who your Line Manager is (I believe) and the level of the job they do. Don't forget most were military posts originally so they probably just swapped them over.
 
#5
Lancashire Hussar said:
Quilldriver, this came up on this site about a year ago, you'll find the answer here, if you follow one of the links on the page.

Regards

LH

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=14585.html
Thanks for the link - good reading. However, at a certain unit, who shall remain nameless, they were expecting some bigwig (Brigadier I think) and even the CO was running around with his head up his arrse making sure everything was just so. Everything was sparkling and just right for the important person's arrival. It turns out it was a civvy he was expecting and the CO didn't dare call him anything other than Sir for the whole of his visit!!

Guess it depends on who you are and what your job is - just like everything else
 
#6
Lancashire Hussar said:
Quilldriver, this came up on this site about a year ago, you'll find the answer here, if you follow one of the links on the page.

Regards

LH

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=14585.html
Thanks for that. Interestingly there appears to have been a bit of grade inflation since then - the Defence intranet site now shows C1 as a 1/2 Col, not a Maj as shown on one of the links from last year. ( Sorry I've not got the link ...)

And no, its not just a "mess accommodation" issue. My ex boss (1/2 Col ) will have his OJAR written by a B2 civil servant. There must be lots more examples in places like DLO ?

My point is - if it is a "mess" issue, why not just give Civil servants a general "SNCO" or "Officer" status. To produce a table showing rank equivalence obviously means a lot more ! - Sorry if this is covering old ground....
 
#7
quilldriver said:
And no, its not just a "mess accommodation" issue. My ex boss (1/2 Col ) will have his OJAR written by a B2 civil servant. There must be lots more examples in places like DLO ?
I know my wife has written part of soldier's CR's - she was their boss.
 
#8
quilldriver said:
Lancashire Hussar said:
Quilldriver, this came up on this site about a year ago, you'll find the answer here, if you follow one of the links on the page.

Regards

LH

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=14585.html
Thanks for that. Interestingly there appears to have been a bit of grade inflation since then - the Defence intranet site now shows C1 as a 1/2 Col, not a Maj as shown on one of the links from last year. ( Sorry I've not got the link ...)

....
Found that link showing the grade inflation... http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/ukds/2005/c2/table227.html

Shows C1 as a 1/2 Col ( OF4 in NATO speak) not a Major etc etc. I'm just glad that both my 1RO and 2RO are military !
 
#11
WOOO HOOOO i am an effing FLT LT, not that it really matters most ex industrials do not really give a to*s about this. I think you will find it is only the pencil dic*s in admin posts, usually with no previous service experience and not being able to use their degrees properly, who feel this is significant. I still get embarrassed when the Foreign Legion squaddy on the gate calls me sir.
 
#13
I am struggling to understand how this subject fits into 'current affairs, news and analysis'. Looks more like a NAAFI Bar whingeing thread to me.
 
#14
I agree with Viro. Stop moaning about it.

The equivalent grades thing is based on the 'level' of work done. Typically defined in terms of how much money you can spend. You can have civvy staff as line managers for military, but that dosen't mean they have any military authority over them.

Most know this. The few t0ssers soon get educated.
 
#15
Let's back on up there a wee minute..... You are suggesting that all of the civil servants believe themselves to be of the 'rank' that their grade is 'suggested' equivalent to?

I've to meet any!

As far as I'm aware the rank structure was as a suggestion as to the mess you'd go to for a brew if you where on MoD property. Nothing more.

It's stupid and it maybe old fashioned, but it's nothing more than that.

Besides I'm a mother. I look like a mother. I act like a mother. I sound like a mother. So I out rank Jackson himself! He's a very naughty boy!

Beebs x
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
#16
quilldriver said:
Does anyone have any idea on what basis they set up the "Equivalent Rank" for civil servants vs commisioned Officers ?

Its a joke. "D" grade = Captain. C2 = Major, C1 = Lt Col etc.

Is it supposed to offset their poor pay or what ? Its certainly no genuine reflection of their abilities.

Methinks its time for a re-grade - Do to that equivalence table what was done to the CR grading system when OJAR came in. No more "High Excellent" - just a solid B.

Maybe the CS could retain their "officer" status for the Mess, but no-way should they be considered as "out-ranking" war-fighting commissioned officers.

Thoughts ?
It dates back to post WW2.....if you want to check out the anomalies try doing it on payscales.......my C1 salary is slightly less than that of a Staff Sgt AGC(SPS)......my (nominal) equivalent ranked (non-deployable) Lt Col colleague is on £175 a day/£60K - 65K per annum........and I agree with VB......

QB - what is your issue ?
 
#17
The question of 'equivalence' in grades is not based on a direct comparison of what a soldier does compared to that of a civil servant; it is, as explained previously elsewhere, so that the correct grade of civil servant (CS) is in the right position to deal with the appropriate level seniority of the soldiers they are working with. Granted, at the lower civil service grades there would appear to be a wide difference in perception, from a military view, of what a Staff Sgt might do compared to an AO but that's not the fault of the Civil Servant. Conversely, civil servants in management grades may have commercial, business, vocational training and experience that their military counterpart does not have and they are in that role for that reason - DLO is a good example of an Agency within the MOD and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office as a an example of a Government Ministry.

With regard to a CS writing a soldier's CR, there are criteria to follow on that and you can seek appropriate guidance from a uniformed higher ranking person if required - in a previous CS post in the MOD i wrote CRs for a Sgt, 2 Cpls and 2 SACs. I had no problem with RAF or Army Officers as my reporting officers writing my report as i knew they had access to the appropriate CS guidance on the subject.

With regard to calling a CS equivalent of, for instance a Capt, 'Sir' or 'Ma'am', you shouldn't do that anyway and they shouldn't expect that themselves - if they do they're asking for trouble. Likewise, in another CS post at a HQ Unit, i never called any military personnel 'Sir' or 'Ma'am', however, if i didn't know them i'd address them by their rank.

Personally, i don't see what all the fuss is about - just get on and work with each other like mature, sensible adults and respect each other what you all do.
 
#18
Why the whine about Civvies controlling the military? Of course they do. If they don't it's called a Military Dictatorship... Which might be a pleasant pipe dream for some but generally HMF exists to carry out the policies of fe*king civvie politicans... innit?
 
#19
Who was the fat bird in Civsec in Split in 1996? She used to wear a combat jacket over her civvies with a Lt Col slide on it. Oh how that gripped my and the RSM's sh1t!
 
#20
I remember a few years ago being furious at a dinner night when chatting to a teacher. He told me it was his god-given right to be in the Mess and that he had equivilent rank to a Lt Col... a fcukin teacher for fcuks sake!!!
 

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