Civil Servants

#21
Tommika,

I entirely agree with your final statement.

I was merely trying to understand is all. When I have a 20 something civil servant telling me they are equivalent to a Major, but lack the qualifications or experience to be, I find it galling. I accept the messing point but so not understand the seeing of equivalency and wanted to educate myself.

I have never seen the MOD 90 as a discount card but am grateful for discounts offered to us for being members of HMF because of what we do. I was unaware of it being extended to those who are not members of HMF and carry out an entirely different role.
A 20 something Civil Servant with Major equivalence has done better than me. That's the same as me as a C2, it took me longer to get there as a 40 something but I wasn't career hopping.

Does that mean that when I made it to C2 and sat opposite a Major, both of us recently in equivalent SO2 roles with the same number 1 priority task nose to the grindstone for a few months, which did not feature on my job description or the job advert.
Did that make me the most experienced SO2 on the task?
On a desk yes, in the MoD yes, around the Army actually yes. As a military man no. But the job did not need the full military Major skillset

I as a C2 have the experience and qualifications for the C2 positions that I have been in
I don't have the experience and qualifications of a Major, I also don't get the same pay
An Army officer has a different career path than a civil servant, but the levelling and responsibilities of C2/Major jobs may be assessed as equivalent
 
#22
Something that many who get wound up about this don't get is that the 'equivalency system' is merely a means of comparing different organisations hierachies and translating what this means to ensure everyone understands who does what.

Its really not difficult, and every other Government department has different titles and nomenclature for different posts/grades - its just a way of working out who is at what level and what that translates to. The problem is the Armed Forces get very grumpy at discovering that they aren't the only rank/grade based organisation in the village, and dislike the idea that others have hierachies too...
 
#23
The rank equivalence thing is, as I understand it, to determine relevant eligibility when using military facilities, as much as anything else. For example, all the CS in Germany at JHQ had to be accommodated somewhere - mostly in married quarters, so do they get an officer's pad or an OR's?

Mrs R280 Mk1 was an Admin Officer (Lt equiv). She was also in the TA. At 8 Sigs, our squadron clerk was an AA, who took her rank equivalence of Sgt very seriously, and lorded it over the JNCOs - and there were dozens of us. One time she wound me up once too many times and I gave her both barrels. "My wife outranks you, but she's a lancejack in the TA at the weekends, and she's got more authority there than you do here". The SSM could be heard sniggering in his office next door.
 
#24
The rank equivalence thing is, as I understand it, to determine relevant eligibility when using military facilities, as much as anything else. For example, all the CS in Germany at JHQ had to be accommodated somewhere - mostly in married quarters, so do they get an officer's pad or an OR's?

Mrs R280 Mk1 was an Admin Officer (Lt equiv). She was also in the TA. At 8 Sigs, our squadron clerk was an AA, who took her rank equivalence of Sgt very seriously, and lorded it over the JNCOs - and there were dozens of us. One time she wound me up once too many times and I gave her both barrels. "My wife outranks you, but she's a lancejack in the TA at the weekends, and she's got more authority there than you do here". The SSM could be heard sniggering in his office next door.
Its one of those things that overtime the military decided could be used for eligibility for accommodation, although it has no real meaning to anyone else in Govt as other depts are not allowed on base to get access to mess accommodation (and in the rare event they do are usually left wondering if they've been transported to alternative and very backward dimension).

AA don't have equivalency in the Mil system - its an admin grade. The problem with the mil is that in a system dominated by rank patches and hierachy, when you judge everyone that way, it rubs off on the people in the system. Get outside MOD and no one gives a stuff about rank and you can spend months or years not knowing the level someone is - I sat next to a lovely middle aged bloke and regularly gave him banter and took the piss out of him for his many failings. Turns out he was a 3*...
 
#25
Most of the CS I worked with outside UK were decent people. I had a couple of years where my direct boss was a CS 1* equivalent, he was a stonking bloke and used his thrust upon him entertainment allowance to look after the section moral on a quarterly basis.

Again, most were decent types, but the few problem idiots tended to be HEO's - "I'm the equivalent of a major, you know". The EO's just tended to get on with life, as did the young AO's.

HQ's were a funny kettle of fish with regards CS ID cards and the like as they would have their issue ID, building ID and then possibly an ID, or two, for various sensitive areas within the building/compound. In JHQ CS would gain NAAFI and other NATO shopping facility access with their primary ID - but lets face it, SOXMIS had access to NAAFI - CS would also receive ration cards for ciggies and booze, the nice cheap petrol coupons and the same tax free discount facilities on new cars, etc that the troops got.

The rank equivalence thing is, as I understand it, to determine relevant eligibility when using military facilities, as much as anything else. For example, all the CS in Germany at JHQ had to be accommodated somewhere - mostly in married quarters, so do they get an officer's pad or an OR's?

Mrs R280 Mk1 was an Admin Officer (Lt equiv). She was also in the TA. At 8 Sigs, our squadron clerk was an AA, who took her rank equivalence of Sgt very seriously, and lorded it over the JNCOs - and there were dozens of us. One time she wound me up once too many times and I gave her both barrels. "My wife outranks you, but she's a lancejack in the TA at the weekends, and she's got more authority there than you do here". The SSM could be heard sniggering in his office next door.
I had a chap in the cellar with me who would variously arrive at work as a civvy and if he got a particular phone call would put on his uniform and become TA man, step outside the building and enter his box body. He loved getting the phone calls as he was getting paid as a CS EO and a TA Cpl at the same time.
 
#26
Get outside MOD and no one gives a stuff about rank and you can spend months or years not knowing the level someone
I'll second that, based on over a decade and a half working in govt depts (various). In my present role, Agile working has become standard practice. Teams are fluid and self-organising, and have been since 2013.

This has done wonders to erode the hierarchical behaviour that was the previous norm, that allowed 'Alpha males' (of both genders) to get away with repeatedly making the same kind of shoite decisions, time after time, based on the assumption that wisdom and rank are the same thing.

Instead, clear, evidence-based goals are set, and teams get on with the business of achieving them by collaborating, without the need for the team leader to tell each person exactly what to do, when, or how.

It's almost like Auftragstaktik; almost like that W Edwards Deming bloke actually knew what he was on about; almost like George S Patton Jnr's line "Tell them what you want them to achieve, and let them amaze you with their ingenuity".
 
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#27
Thanks. It grieves me that a snivelling serpent thinks they are entitled to the same as members of the armed forces. I have worked with them and they have said they are getting equivalent to MOD 90s. They take military packages, although they are far from military. I wonder what benefits we get from them? And yet they sponge off the fact they are in support of HMF, even going so far as to claim equivalent rank!! None of us claim equivalent grade!!
Do you get any decent discounts with your chip on a shoulder card?

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#28
Whilst on the subject of the CS, what sort of being might someone described as a "Grade 6" be in context of a non MOD Government department these days, allegedly sitting remote but atop yet another IT procurement fiasco?
In the mod it's a B1 or on the very crude military equivalent - colonel/ group captain, captain

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#29
The rank equivalence thing is, as I understand it, to determine relevant eligibility when using military facilities, as much as anything else. For example, all the CS in Germany at JHQ had to be accommodated somewhere - mostly in married quarters, so do they get an officer's pad or an OR's?

Mrs R280 Mk1 was an Admin Officer (Lt equiv). She was also in the TA. At 8 Sigs, our squadron clerk was an AA, who took her rank equivalence of Sgt very seriously, and lorded it over the JNCOs - and there were dozens of us. One time she wound me up once too many times and I gave her both barrels. "My wife outranks you, but she's a lancejack in the TA at the weekends, and she's got more authority there than you do here". The SSM could be heard sniggering in his office next door.
It's used when you have a mil-civilian mix in a line management hierarchy. Although a few orgs I've been in 'reduce' the CS down a level with a C1 (SEO) = to a Major, Sqn Ldr, Lt Cdr

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#30
Civil servants are neither civil or servants ..I read that somewhere...I think it was on a toilet door in MOD box ..
 
#31
When I have a 20 something civil servant telling me they are equivalent to a Major, but lack the qualifications or experience to be, I find it galling
When, 20 years ago, and still serving, I first found myself working with the CS in MoD, the habits of thought I had acquired in the 20+ years since I was commissioned had me feeling very uncomfortable at the youth of many CS, compared to the responsibility and authority vested in them.

This was in distinct contrast to Army practice.

It slowly dawned on me, that in the two World Wars, soldiers even younger shouldered much greater burdens to good effect (FM Lord Carver, at 27 years old - Brigadier, IIRC)

Made me begin to suspect that - actually - Regular Armythink actually means that the Army doesn't make best possible use of young talent, with all sorts of negative downstream impacts on recruitment and collective performance.

These days, I'm working with teams of all ages. Rank/grade/age don't seem to be issues.

Competence is what matters.
 
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#32
I'm CS nowadays. Can I have one of these discount cards? Although I'm DWP, I do spend a lot of time taking money off Glaswegian alcoholics - surely that deserves some kind of reward from a grateful nation?
 
#33
MOD staff do not qualify for defence discounts unless the firm chooses to offer them to civil servants (relatively common). To my knowledge, MOD CS dont qualify for defence discount scheme unless they gave prior military service.
The only reason that businesses offer discounts to anyone is to get sales. Anyone who thinks that firms offer discounts to service personnel for some altruistic reason is sorely mistaken.

The DDS providrs a large captive audience of potential customers who are easy to access through a free to join scheme. A sale generated by the DDS costs nothing other than the discount. No advertising, marketing or admin fees.

From a business perspective, the more people with access to the DDS, the better.
 
#34
The RFA are considered Civil Servents and we get MOD90s almost identical to the RN.

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#36
The RFA are considered Civil Servents and we get MOD90s almost identical to the RN.

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Do RFA get mobilised in time of war, or is it considered to be merely the continuation of sailoring with the admixture of other means of sinking your ships?
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
#37
Civil servants are neither civil or servants ..I read that somewhere...I think it was on a toilet door in MOD box ..
That would be next to the frequently seen
'Military Intelligence - a contradiction in terms'
 
#38
Do RFA get mobilised in time of war, or is it considered to be merely the continuation of sailoring with the admixture of other means of sinking your ships?
They are, I believe, sponsored reservists and thus subject to the provisions within.
 
#39
I'm CS nowadays. Can I have one of these discount cards? Although I'm DWP, I do spend a lot of time taking money off Glaswegian alcoholics - surely that deserves some kind of reward from a grateful nation?
Brave man. Some would consider such an activity suicide. Though, being DWP, it's only a matter of time until you are taken hostage by a disgruntled customer :p
 
#40
They are, I believe, sponsored reservists and thus subject to the provisions within.
That's a Yes Minister way of saying 'they get mobilised', which would explain the MoD 90s, which one presumes go to sea in their owners pockets, in case war breaks out whilst they're on the oggin.
 

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