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CIA renditions strain Europe goodwill

#1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4822374.stm

CIA renditions strain Europe goodwill.
"This was a so-called extraordinary rendition - a term referring to the abduction of terrorist suspects and their removal to countries other than the US for imprisonment and interrogation. "
"Italian prosecutors have opened up a case and issued arrest warrants for 22 alleged CIA operatives involved."
does the end justify the means? has the 'western' secret services become the new gestapo?

ffs what are they realy doing and what have they become.
 
#2
If you think multiple countries aren't doing this sort of kidnapping thing frequently, you're pretty much deluding yourself. Only issue is that in this case, the CIA got caught, since the Italians were already tailing the guy.

Isn't there a thread on this already from a few months back?

NTM
 
#3
California_Tanker said:
If you think multiple countries aren't doing this sort of kidnapping thing frequently, you're pretty much deluding yourself. Only issue is that in this case, the CIA got caught, since the Italians were already tailing the guy.

Isn't there a thread on this already from a few months back?

NTM
The French done it with Carlos the Jackel years ago. Acting on a CIA tip French Intelligence Officers lifted him from Sudan & in the process violated several International laws. Of course he deserved it but it just shows what other Governments have been up to in the past before these rendition flights.
 
#4
This sort of thing has always happened. The Israelis lifted Eichmann and that "nukular" geezer Mordecai in contravention of international treaties. And if memory serves, the UK tried it with Ronnie Biggs. Nobody really knows for sure how often other countries do (or have done) it because it's all hush hush.

The Septics just do it on an industrial scale.

MsG
 
#6
Darth_Doctrinus said:
DrStealth said:
...does the end justify the means...?
Yep - and I don't care who that response offends. You can't fight in the gutter unless you're willing to get a little grubby yourselves...
Bang on target. The blokes running around blowing things up do not respect borders, so to catch them, turn over every stone, no matter where that stone lies.
 
#7
Darth_Doctrinus said:
DrStealth said:
...does the end justify the means...?
Yep - and I don't care who that response offends. You can't fight in the gutter unless you're willing to get a little grubby yourselves...

Though not sympathetic with the issue, D_D hit it spot on. Couldn't have been said better.
 
#8
Hmmm.... while I've no problem with lowering the standard of evidence for a small number of very serious crimes I can't see why it can't be done legally and through the courts. Especially in an allied country such as Italy. We need counterbalances to defend against abuses...

Tricam.
 
#9
Radical_Dreamer said:
Darth_Doctrinus said:
DrStealth said:
...does the end justify the means...?
Yep - and I don't care who that response offends. You can't fight in the gutter unless you're willing to get a little grubby yourselves...

Though not sympathetic with the issue, D_D hit it spot on. Couldn't have been said better.
However, if you perform such grubby activities so incompetently that they end up on the front pages of the papers you will then aid the enemy to recruit more to his cause than you put away. This is not a strategy for success. If we are to do some dodgy things then they need to be kept very quiet. If they can't be kept quiet then don't do them as the blowback will ultimately hinder our cause.
 
#10
tricam said:
Hmmm.... while I've no problem with lowering the standard of evidence for a small number of very serious crimes I can't see why it can't be done legally and through the courts. Especially in an allied country such as Italy. We need counterbalances to defend against abuses...

Tricam.
I agree..I am in favour of detaining terrorists I just believe that due process is essential. Matters like this with or without the complicity of other governments does not make the Arab world trust the US...or want to help in this battle. I do believe the moral high ground is essential and losing it even for a short term gain will do lasting damage to the 'hearts and minds' campaign.
 
#12
One_of_the_strange said:
Radical_Dreamer said:
Darth_Doctrinus said:
DrStealth said:
...does the end justify the means...?
Yep - and I don't care who that response offends. You can't fight in the gutter unless you're willing to get a little grubby yourselves...

Though not sympathetic with the issue, D_D hit it spot on. Couldn't have been said better.
However, if you perform such grubby activities so incompetently that they end up on the front pages of the papers you will then aid the enemy to recruit more to his cause than you put away. This is not a strategy for success. If we are to do some dodgy things then they need to be kept very quiet. If they can't be kept quiet then don't do them as the blowback will ultimately hinder our cause.
Also - is it ever possible to hide this sort of a grubby activity?

Sure, we might get away with funding the enemy of our enemy or something sneaky like that. But everyone, everywhere in the world, has a circle of friends/family who will notice when someone disappears!!!

Tricam
 
#13
One argument against extra-judical activities such as rendition, detention without charge (etc) is that these measures are invariably introduced on the premise that they will only be used in "exceptional" circumstances.

As soon as they are introduced, then they are used against any man and his dog in order to shortcut the due process of law. We now see businessmen extradited to the US without a prima facie case being presented, and a blind man extradited and locked up for allegedly injuring his child - despite the fact that he wasn't even in the US when the injury occurred.

In the UK, anti-terror legislation is used to interrogate and criminalise political dissidents and protesters.

Such methods are never appropriate and should never be provided to our
 
#14
All this concern over grubbiness prompts me to ask why bother to detain and interrogate and THEN try in a court?

Why not just snatch, beat the faeces out of suspect, extract info and then kill 'em.

You then have the information and if you did the last part right, no one is sure what happened and thus you spread fear and disorder amongst the terr's

I sincerely hope the CIA/FSB/SVR/MI ? is doing exactly what is claimed but I would rather they showed a little more discretion about the job.
 
#15
MrPVRd said:
One argument against extra-judical activities such as rendition, detention without charge (etc) is that these measures are invariably introduced on the premise that they will only be used in "exceptional" circumstances.

As soon as they are introduced, then they are used against any man and his dog in order to shortcut the due process of law. We now see businessmen extradited to the US without a prima facie case being presented, and a blind man extradited and locked up for allegedly injuring his child - despite the fact that he wasn't even in the US when the injury occurred.

In the UK, anti-terror legislation is used to interrogate and criminalise political dissidents and protesters.

Such methods are never appropriate and should never be provided to our
It's worse that that MrPVRd,

The businessmen concerned are UK citizens who are alleged to have committed a fraud in the UK against a UK bank and end up being tried in the US. I think we've lost the plot.

C
 
#16
Speedkuff said:
All this concern over grubbiness prompts me to ask why bother to detain and interrogate and THEN try in a court?

Why not just snatch, beat the faeces out of suspect, extract info and then kill 'em.

You then have the information and if you did the last part right, no one is sure what happened and thus you spread fear and disorder amongst the terr's

I sincerely hope the CIA/FSB/SVR/MI ? is doing exactly what is claimed but I would rather they showed a little more discretion about the job.
In fact, I ask myself why they bother with all this guff. Why don't they just ask YOU for your opinion on all of the cases,Speedkuff, since you seem to know the score! (I don't fücking think!!!!)

MsG
 
#17
i do not have a problem with "extraordinary rendition" per se - in select cases, where there is very strong evidence of involvement, and we wish to acquire the information key members hold (which they would be rather reluctant to divulge).

where i have a problem is - i know how sh*t the americans can be on their int. and using this technique on such a wide scale (over 100 suggested cases i believe) means that not everybody extracted from society by this completely illegal method is actually going to be guilty of anything at all.

remember the brit OAP detained at gunpoint by the FBI in south africa, after the spams claimed he was on the FBI's most wanted list? took 3 weeks for them to accept he was the wrong man and release him. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/4518411.stm
 
#18
Speedkuff said:
All this concern over grubbiness prompts me to ask why bother to detain and interrogate and THEN try in a court?

Why not just snatch, beat the faeces out of suspect, extract info and then kill 'em.

You then have the information and if you did the last part right, no one is sure what happened and thus you spread fear and disorder amongst the terr's
If folks start disappearing, and the word goes round that it's safest to pretend not to notice they're gone, you thus spread fear among the entire peasantry.

Which is a very good thing.

It stops them from asking a lot of foolish questions about matters which are none of their business.
 
#19
Well, if the end justifies the means, the only difference between you and a religious fundamentalist terrorist is how important you think your end is.
In that case, who the hell cares who does what? Fly a plane into a building bomb a town to buggery. It's all the same in the end. We all lose.
 
#20
civvy said:
MrPVRd said:
One argument against extra-judical activities such as rendition, detention without charge (etc) is that these measures are invariably introduced on the premise that they will only be used in "exceptional" circumstances.

As soon as they are introduced, then they are used against any man and his dog in order to shortcut the due process of law. We now see businessmen extradited to the US without a prima facie case being presented....

.....
It's worse that that MrPVRd

The businessmen concerned are UK citizens who are alleged to have committed a fraud in the UK against a UK bank and end up being tried in the US. I think we've lost the plot.

C
The Declaration of Independence was the thirteen American colonies' bill of particulars against George III. It complained against him, among many other things, "For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences." http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm
 

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