Churchill's WW2 Medals

[RP578]

Apologies if this has been done before, but was at Blenheim Palace yesterday and saw Winston's ribbon rack on display. I see that he was awarded the 1939-45 Star, Africa Star, Italy Star, France & Germany Star, Defence & War Medals.

Question is, how did he qualify for those medals? I know he visited those theatres and often took to wearing a variety of uniforms (mostly RAF). Could this have been a Reservist type thing (n.b. the War Medal was for 28 days full time service)? Surely he wouldn't have qualified as a politician/Hon.Col. making flying visits to the troops?

 

[chippymick]

Apologies if this has been done before, but was at Blenheim Palace yesterday and saw Winston's ribbon rack on display. I see that he was awarded the 1939-45 Star, Africa Star, Italy Star, France & Germany Star, Defence & War Medals.

Question is, how did he qualify for those medals? I know he visited those theatres and often took to wearing a variety of uniforms (mostly RAF). Could this have been a Reservist type thing (n.b. the War Medal was for 28 days full time service)? Surely he wouldn't have qualified as a politician/Hon.Col. making flying visits to the troops?

RP

In some respects Churchill was an uber walt.

I used to have a dead set against him for the usual reasons - Gallipoli, diverting the 7th division, etc etc

There was no way in hell he qualified for most of the WW2 campaign medals he put up. The Royal Warrants for them were very specific and Winston did not meet them.

What makes it worse is that these were not something that turned up in the mail worked out by some war office clerk. To receive them they had to be personally applied for and proof of service as per the royal warrant had to be provided.

I'm not suggesting that Winnie did this himself. He probably had some minion do it for him. At the same time he was applying for unearnt medals he purloined the wartime cabinet documents; public records, to use as the basis of his memoirs, for personal profit.

That is as black as Churchill can be painted. In spite of his waltistic habits he gave up a great deal of aristocratic bling and an opportunity to suck on the public tit by taking up the prime ministership.

Although a flawed person, Churchill's greatness was manifest when he alone stood against the absolute evil of the third Reich.

For this epic stand of principle, a bit of uniform fetishness and waltism can be easily forgiven.

As pointed out here recently, Churchill paid his penance for Gallipoli with a stint in the trenches.

The first bleat of nearly every exposed walt is the claim that the walting is mitigated by some sort of contribution to charity, usually Forces related. Churchill is the sole case where his perpetual contribution to charity was better known than his waltism.

From his iill gotten gains Winston established the 'Churchill Fellowship'

Churchill never qualified for a good proportion of his fruit salad.

An exception can be made for him because he was exceptional.

Mick

 

[mnairb]

I don't think that you had to apply for some of the medals - my father had the 1939-45 star, War and Defence medals and never left UK. He certainly didn't apply for them (he wasn't that sort) and was bewildered as to why he had got them when they turned up in the post one day.

 

[RP578]

Hiya Mick,

Ref your remark about "uniform fetishness", I think there's definitely something in that. I wonder if Churchill wasn't one of those blokes who deep down always essentially views the military and warfare as a game of toy soldiers and is in love with the pageant of it all.

Still, given his active service in India, South Africa, Sudan and in WWI, I'm at a bit of a loss why he'd feel the need to add more medals. Lets face it, his ribbon-rack looked like the proverbial "Dulux wallchart" even without the WW2 set.

 

[blueygirl]

Chippy - the Churchill fellowship wasn't established by Churchill. It came about as the result of donations given by the public when he died. There was a general consensus that a lasting memorial should be established that would fully recognise the very broad range of Churchills talents and abilities - everything from artist to bricklayer, soldier to statesman (no matter what you think of his abilities in those areas)...so several decades later the Churchill Trust is still going strong....

Can't add anything to the medals debate though!

 

[buttonsin3s]

The Defence medal was awarded for non-operational service in the UK, working in HQs, training bases and airfields and members of the Home Guard, it was also awarded for non operational service overseas.
The War medal was awarded to all fulltime personnel of the armed forces wherever they were serving, provided they had served for at least 28 days between 3 September 1939 and 2 September 1945.
All the stars could be given, at certain periods, after 1 or more days service.

Depending on his status (e.g does the WW2 Prime Ministers role count as "serving", if he had any "honoury" roles as say, a colonel of a regiment, etc) he probably did "earn" the medals in some peoples eyes and not in other peoples eyes.

A thread like this is what makes ARRSE so interesting, having never seen his rack, this was news to me.

 

[chippymick]

I don't think that you had to apply for some of the medals - my father had the 1939-45 star, War and Defence medals and never left UK. He certainly didn't apply for them (he wasn't that sort) and was bewildered as to why he had got them when they turned up in the post one day.

Quite right.

Some of them came in the post via the diligent efforts of a war office clerk but others didn't and had to be specifically applied for.

RP I haven't bothered to look it up again but from memory WC put up a 'Royal effulgent order of the Elephant' or some such from Thailand. God help us.

Early days in WW1 Churchill took flying lessons until his mum apparently put the kibosh on it before he solo'd. Yet WC has no problem wearing a RAF uniform complete with pilot wings in WW2.

That said, after WW1 he could have had his pick of any aristocratic sinecure and taken the money and regular honours that came with each New Year. I'm a great fan of Phil the Greek, who has a fair bit of honest WW2 service but the chestful he displays today could have easily gone Winnies way as well. Our man in the 1960's Sir Robert Menzies was made 'Warden of the Cinque Ports', it came with a set of robes and a few bob and let our Bob die a happy man, knowing he had made something of himself.

Bluey - Point taken. Although I think the Churchill Fellowship is still a great legacy for a great man.

Mick

 

[chippymick]

This bit is utterly wrong.

Their is no blanket 1 day rule.

You need to look at each individual Royal Warrant for the Campaign Stars to see what the qualification was. There were differences between them all. Come back to me with WC's qualification for the North Africa Star for example.

Like every campaign medal you first need to cite His or Her Majesty's Rules first and work out from that point.

The beginning and the end is the 'Royal Warrant' establishing the award.

Mick

 

[Bardeyai]

Quite right.

Some of them came in the post via the diligent efforts of a war office clerk but others didn't and had to be specifically applied for.

RP I haven't bothered to look it up again but from memory WC put up a 'Royal effulgent order of the Elephant' or some such from Thailand. God help us.

Early days in WW1 Churchill took flying lessons until his mum apparently put the kibosh on it before he solo'd. Yet WC has no problem wearing a RAF uniform complete with pilot wings in WW2.

That said, after WW1 he could have had his pick of any aristocratic sinecure and taken the money and regular honours that came with each New Year. I'm a great fan of Phil the Greek, who has a fair bit of honest WW2 service but the chestful he displays today could have easily gone Winnies way as well. Our man in the 1960's Sir Robert Menzies was made 'Warden of the Cinque Ports', it came with a set of robes and a few bob and let our Bob die a happy man, knowing he had made something of himself.

Bluey - Point taken. Although I think the Churchill Fellowship is still a great legacy for a great man.

Mick

Minor Point: I believe Churchill learnt to fly at his own expense whilst 1st Lord of The Admiralty well before WW1.

He was 1st Lord of The Admiralty from the outbreak of WW2, until he became PM and Minister of Defence. I guess that justifies the medals? If not, he turned down the offer of a Dukedom, as Duke of London.

There's many things that Churchill can be criticised for but I think he was too big a man to walt it for some bling.

 

[mnairb]

Chippymick, as you mention, the royals are the worst for wearing unearned medals - the last time I looked, Prince Edward had 3 medals, despite his less than notable service in the Royal Marines, and Prince Charles has got a chestful of them.

 

[Bardeyai]

Well? They've got his mum's face on them and she can give them to whom she wants. What do you give to the kid who has everything?

I think Edwards one's are those that are solely within the perogative of The Monarch - Royal Household thingies.... the zig-zaggy ribbon one..... a bit like the national defence medal.

 

[RP578]

Quite right.

Some of them came in the post via the diligent efforts of a war office clerk but others didn't and had to be specifically applied for.

RP I haven't bothered to look it up again but from memory WC put up a 'Royal effulgent order of the Elephant' or some such from Thailand. God help us.

Early days in WW1 Churchill took flying lessons until his mum apparently put the kibosh on it before he solo'd. Yet WC has no problem wearing a RAF uniform complete with pilot wings in WW2.

Mick,

The Order of the Elephant was from the Danes and it's one of those Order/Awards that Heads of State, Royalty etc. throughout the world give each other in their one big happy celebrity circle-jerk.



I always wondered about the brazen wearing of RAF pilot wings. It does seem to have been a war where people often wore whatever they liked (see Monty) however they wanted.

Most WW2 medals seem to have been applied for by a serviceman's unit (obviously not applicable to Churchill), but many applied after demob at the post office. Servicemen were given a Medal Index Card (MIC) similar to the WWI version, but this time it did not have the soldier's service details, rather it was an application form for him to claim what he thought he was entitled to. See examples below:

 

[buttonsin3s]

This bit is utterly wrong.

Their is no blanket 1 day rule.

You need to look at each individual Royal Warrant for the Campaign Stars to see what the qualification was. There were differences between them all. Come back to me with WC's qualification for the North Africa Star for example.

Like every campaign medal you first need to cite His or Her Majesty's Rules first and work out from that point.

The beginning and the end is the 'Royal Warrant' establishing the award.

Mick

Mick, I never said there was a blanket one day rule for all the stars, as for WCs qualification, that's why i put in the bit about if he was a Colonel of a Regiment/Corp, etc.

The Africa Star, for example, according to the MODs own criteria
Criteria

Star awarded for 1 or more days’ service in North Africa, Malta or Egypt between the above dates.
(dates being 10 June 1940 and 12 May 1943)
Ministry of Defence | Defence For... | Veterans | Medals | Africa Star

 

[RP578]

Minor Point: I believe Churchill learnt to fly at his own expense whilst 1st Lord of The Admiralty well before WW1.

He was 1st Lord of The Admiralty from the outbreak of WW2, until he became PM and Minister of Defence. I guess that justifies the medals? If not, he turned down the offer of a Dukedom, as Duke of London.

There's many things that Churchill can be criticised for but I think he was too big a man to walt it for some bling.

bardeyai,

The Fist Lord of the Admiralty had been a civilian post since the start of the 19th Century and was political post to preside over the Admiralty Board. In no way did it confer a military rank or uniform. Churchill turned down the offer of a Dukedom after consulting his son who wanted to pursue a career in politics. Being the first son of a peer would (back then) have led to difficulties as he would have had to have resigned his seat in the Commons upon inheriting his title. This was later challenged and overturned by Tony Benn MP who successfully renounced his title so as to be able to stay in the Commons.

The thing about Churchill is that he more than earned plenty of campaign medals, so the WW2 set are a bit of a mystery.

 

[Idrach]

I think Edwards one's are those that are solely within the perogative of The Monarch - Royal Household thingies.... the zig-zaggy ribbon one..... a bit like the national defence medal.

Not really - the zig-zag one is the New Zealand Queen's Service Order - given for charity work - but I don't think Edward has it? Charles definitely does.



Edit to add: Edward, consulting his official site, has the Kiwi's "New Zealand Commemorative Medal":



I suppose, in the days before jets and with as little as 1 day counting, Churchill's many trips to the troops in theatre, if not the front line, would have counted?

 

[Archimedes]

Churchill did learn to fly, but didn't complete the course and gain a certificate because Clementine (not his mum) begged him to stop after one of his instructors was killed.

He was the honorary Air Commodore of 615 Auxillary AF squadron from 1939, and entitled to wear the uniform. If I recall, he actually put in for his uniform allowance to buy it... He was also entitled to the wings - because the Air Council awarded him a set of honorary wings in March (IIRC) 1943. He had flown over 30,000 miles 'on duty' by that time, according to the documentation, and he was known to fly the aeroplanes he was aboard for part of the trip (he didn't do take offs or landings). There is photographic evidence of him wearing his RAF uniform pre-1943 somewhere, and the wings are not worn in the photo - so he clearly waited until he was granted them before putting them up.

 

[Bardeyai]

RP - Fair one. This has got me scratching my head now. So I consulted Wiki. FA use, of course.

Memory/Myth has it that the cleaners and teachers in Cyprus got the GW1 Gong because, theoretically, the scuds could have reached them, so they were entitled. On that basis I would have said the Churchill earned his bling many times over.

As for the Wings. William Manchester Vol.1. The following may not be from that but from the source that Manchester used.

"They went up as often as ten times a day. Every officer on the instruction staff worried about their eminent student. “We were all scared stiff,” said Courtney, “of having a smashed First Lord on our hands.” Eugene Gerrard, later air commodore, said: “WSC has had as much as twenty-five hours in the air, but no one will risk letting him solo; if anything happened to WSC the career of the man who had allowed him a solo flight would be finished.” Sir Philip Joubert de la Ferte, later air chief marshal, remembered Winston as “a very fair pilot once he was in the air, but more than uncertain in his take-off and landing. His instructors usually took over the controls to make the final approach and touchdown.” Another future RAF marshal, Hugh Trenchard, gave him lower marks. After watching him “wallowing about the sky,” as he put it, he decided Winston was “altogether too impatient for a good pupil.”



But Churchill persevered. He spent the afternoon of Saturday, November 29, 1913, in the air with Captain Wildman-Lushington of the Royal Marines. After they had parted, the captain wrote his fiancee: “I started Winston off of his instruction about 12.15 & he got so bitten with it, I could hardly get him out of the machine, in fact except for about ¾ hour for lunch we were in the machine till about 3.30. He showed great promise, & is coming down again for further instruction & practice.” Winston himself was dissatisfied. Once he had set his mind on an objective, anything short of total conquest was unacceptable".

True doesn't prove that he got his wings but I can't be arrsed to read it all.

 

[BuggerAll]

I must first take issue with the comments about Churchill and Gallipoli. Churchill's original Naval campaign in the Dardanelles was perfectly sound and had it been successful it almost certainly would have shortened the war and saved many lives on the Western Front. Unfortunately the Navy failed for reasons that had nothing to do with Churchill. The land campaign was not his idea but the fact that it failed was very much the fault of the Generals not the politicos. Gallipoli is one of the Great Wars greatest tragedies because the entente had so many opportunities for success but repeatedly snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

As for Sir Winston's medals I have no idea on what grounds he was awarded them, if at all, but I would think it is more than possible that the King personally authorised them in which case all the normal rules go out of the window.

I was at a dinner where Colonel The Lord Robertson was awarded the NATO medals for service in the Former Republic of Yugoslavia, Kosovo and Macedonia pinned on him by SACUER. Under the normal rules he would not qualified but the awarding body, NATO in this case the King in Sir Winston's case wants to change the rules then that's up to them.

 

[Bardeyai]

I must first take issue with the comments about Churchill and Gallipoli. Churchill's original Naval campaign in the Dardanelles was perfectly sound and had it been successful it almost certainly would have shortened the war and saved many lives on the Western Front. Unfortunately the Navy failed for reasons that had nothing to do with Churchill. The land campaign was not his idea but the fact that it failed was very much the fault of the Generals not the politicos. Gallipoli is one of the Great Wars greatest tragedies because the entente had so many opportunities for success but repeatedly snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

As for Sir Winston's medals I have no idea on what grounds he was awarded them, if at all, but I would think it is more than possible that the King personally authorised them in which case all the normal rules go out of the window.

I was at a dinner where Colonel The Lord Robertson was awarded the NATO medals for service in the Former Republic of Yugoslavia, Kosovo and Macedonia pinned on him by SACUER. Under the normal rules he would not qualified but the awarding body, NATO in this case the King in Sir Winston's case wants to change the rules then that's up to them.

BA - Hello, Did someone mention Galipolli?
Thanks for the story about the medals. I could see that having lost the '45 election, a grateful nation may have wished to commemorate Churchill's leadership in 1940 by giving him the set.

 

[RP578]

BA - Hello, Did someone mention Galipolli?
Thanks for the story about the medals. I could see that having lost the '45 election, a grateful nation may have wished to commemorate Churchill's leadership in 1940 by giving him the set.

Hmmm. A grateful nation usually rewards public servants with Honours & Awards, not campaign medals. Hence he was awarded the Order of Merit after the War and later made a Knight Companion of the Order of Garter, which is about as high up as Orders get in the UK.

I think Bugger_All has probably got it right with the Royal Prerogative angle.