CHINA'S LIABILITY?

[LeoRoverman]

*Cough*WMD*Cough*

The list of countries whose governments have lied and continue to lie resulting in massive deaths actively caused by those lies is pretty long, yet our response seems pretty muted when it doesn't serve our national interests to level criticism.

If a behaviour is wrong, it's wrong for everyone. If it's not wrong for everyone, it's not wrong.

Yes, but can you imagine the shellacking from the press or the public demonstrations against that policy in China. How does China suppress that. With violence? Disappearances, trumped up trials?

 

[jagman2]

My bold: I would say because hundreds of thousands have died and many more yet to die.

Two million dead. So far.

 

[Resasi]

Disappearances,

Jack Ma and others.
disappearing-billionaires-jack-ma-and-other-chinese-moguls-who-have-mysteriously-dropped-off-the-radar

 

[LeoRoverman]

^
sequestrating the assets informally certainly strengthens the government hand without showing it.

 

[smartascarrots]

Er I know. Your last line is a bit sweeping bearing in mind the load of fake news generated, largely at the behest of totalitarian regimes who do not have freedom of thought. In a utopian world, it would be true, but it’s not. It can be suggested that electorates should be ignored as they cannot affect anything. But Brexit has proved that untrue. The electorate here has had a stunning victory in affecting policy, that even the Americans have failed to grasp.
Perhaps their version was the election of Trump That the elites couldn’t tolerate.

If you think fake news is the sole behest of totalitarian or even authoritarian regimes, you've been in a coma these last 4 years. The US is seeing the end of a democratically-elected government which lied its arse off as a matter of policy.

Remind me, then, how democracy prevents untruth from government.

 

[smartascarrots]

Yes, but can you imagine the shellacking from the press or the public demonstrations against that policy in China.

I can certainly imagine lots of people posturing ineffectively on the sidelines without making a whit of difference to government policy - as the UK press and public did in 2003 - but in China they're more likely to express their displeasure more directly.


In the face of contemporary evidence from our own country that democracy et al does not prevent a government from lying, nor act as an effective sanction afterwards, are you really still so confident that it will work better elsewhere?

 

[smartascarrots]

Jack Ma and others.
disappearing-billionaires-jack-ma-and-other-chinese-moguls-who-have-mysteriously-dropped-off-the-radar

Jack Ma is a CCP member. He signed up, knowingly, to Party Discipline when he joined.

 

[LeoRoverman]

I can certainly imagine lots of people posturing ineffectively on the sidelines without making a whit of difference to government policy - as the UK press and public did in 2003 - but in China they're more likely to express their displeasure more directly.


In the face of contemporary evidence from our own country that democracy et al does not prevent a government from lying, nor act as an effective sanction afterwards, are you really still so confident that it will work better elsewhere?

In short I believe so.

 

[LeoRoverman]

If you think fake news is the sole behest of totalitarian or even authoritarian regimes, you've been in a coma these last 4 years. The US is seeing the end of a democratically-elected government which lied its arse off as a matter of policy.

Remind me, then, how democracy prevents untruth from government.

I disagree. Far from being in a coma, I have become more critical and realistic. There are elements of Trump I like. The wailing from the left belies the underlying agreements they have made between themselves, whilst the right is sensing the opportunity to sieze the ground. The gurgling of the swamp around Trump is not dissimilar in some respects to the EU having to cover their embarrassment, whilst they try to gain some sort of normality from the chaos of the electorates. It ain’t finished.
In many respects the Chinese arguments echo those who didn’t want the apple cart upset over here, witness the desperate scrabbling of the putative remain campaign that the part of the Labour camp are promising. that only those who know best should control outcomes. That in itself is a hijacking of the arguments of regimes they replaced.

in other words the revolutionaries lied to the populace to gain their own ends, which was no change, just them in control.it’s a yang yang argument that never goes away. Two sets of people finger pointing for eternity.

 

[Mbongwe]

Jack Ma is a CCP member. He signed up, knowingly, to Party Discipline when he joined.

Here's hoping that one silver lining of the COVID-19 pandemic is that the UK further distances itself from that odious regime that is passes for China.

 

[smartascarrots]

Here's hoping that one silver lining of the COVID-19 pandemic is that the UK further distances itself from that odious regime that is passes for China.

A nation looking to establish itself as a key trading nation in the 21st century will distance itself from a market which consists of 1/5th of the human race and has increasing disposable income?

Well, God loves an optimist.

 

[Mbongwe]

A nation looking to establish itself as a key trading nation in the 21st century will distance itself from a market which consists of 1/5th of the human race and has increasing disposable income?

Well, God loves an optimist.

Distance ourselves from kow-towing to an odious regime, not necessarily the populace or the diaspora; there's a big difference, you'll understand...

 

[LeoRoverman]

Well, God loves an optimist.

Higgs will be after you

 

[smartascarrots]

Distance ourselves from kow-towing to an odious regime, not necessarily the populace or the diaspora; there's a big difference, you'll understand...

The diaspora is in addition to the 1/5th of humanity which is the population of the PRC on its own.

Again, how likely is it that we'll give that up ever, let alone at this critical time? The UK government is not known for sacrificing money on the altar of principle and it's not alone in that.

 

[overopensights]

*Cough*WMD*Cough*

The list of countries whose governments have lied and continue to lie resulting in massive deaths actively caused by those lies is pretty long, yet our response seems pretty muted when it doesn't serve our national interests to level criticism.

If a behaviour is wrong, it's wrong for everyone. If it's not wrong for everyone, it's not wrong.

Smart as Carrots, you've been indoctrinated!

 

[smartascarrots]

There are elements of Trump I like

How do you feel about the endless lying? Did democracy prevent it?

 

[smartascarrots]

Smart as Carrots, you've been indoctrinated!

Since I'm generally critical of where the PRC gets things wrong, I don't see how. That I don't equate 'I don't like' with 'Wrong and Evil' seems to cause some posters conniptions, especially when it's accompanied by 'here's the situation they were addressing when they did X and it's a good deal more complex than you thought'.

Most of all, since I've been exposed to far too many examples of where our own country has had what I'll generously call 'unevenly applied principle' I'm less than enthused when posters say the UK should do summat because Principle, as if our feet were planted soundly on moral high ground.

If I see more of such examples in regard to the PRC it's because that's my area of expertise and they come to my attention more frequently because of that, not because it's the only field in which it happens.

 

[LeoRoverman]

How do you feel about the endless lying? Did democracy prevent it?

It doesn’t prevent it, but it can control to a certain extent.

 

[Resasi]

why does it suddenly become unacceptable in this one case?

Because the government you are ‘rooting’ for...in your capacity as a vegetable, just happens to be more repressive, more totalitarian, lies more, and quite frankly a more frightening prospect as the worlds next superpower!!

You are a dedicated spokesvegetable for China who at the moment has unleashed upon the globe, intentionally...or by unintentional carelessness, a killer viral global pandemic that they are frantically denying.

You have fanatically toed the CCP line, argue tirelessly their complete innocence, and quite honestly come across and a serious 50 cent advocate for their cause.

You try hard, but as hard as both you and the CCP have put China’s case it does not stack up against overwhelming evidence of China’s abrogation of agreements with Britain over Hong Kong, the Tien Mien Square massacre, it appalling human rights issues with Tibet, the Uyghurs, and it’s population in general.

It is a repressive regime that I, and many others, believe is a complete blight upon what individual freedoms are enjoyed in the world by billions who are happily not under the control of the CCP!!!

 

[endure]

Because the government you are ‘rooting’ for...in your capacity as a vegetable, just happens to be more repressive, more totalitarian, lies more, and quite frankly a more frightening prospect as the worlds next superpower!!

You are a dedicated spokesvegetable for China who at the moment has unleashed upon the globe, intentionally...or by unintentional carelessness, a killer viral global pandemic that they are frantically denying.

You have fanatically toed the CCP line, argue tirelessly their complete innocence, and quite honestly come across and a serious 50 cent advocate for their cause.

You try hard, but as hard as both you and the CCP have put China’s case it does not stack up against overwhelming evidence of China’s abrogation of agreements with Britain over Hong Kong, the Tien Mien Square massacre, it appalling human rights issues with Tibet, the Uyghurs, and it’s population in general.

It is a repressive regime that I, and many others, believe is a complete blight upon what individual freedoms are enjoyed in the world by billions who are happily not under the control of the CCP!!!

On the other hand it's lifted nearly a billion people out of poverty in the past 40 years and no I'm not a 50 center. I just don't get my 'facts' from the Daily Express...