China Renting Siberia?

#2
They seem to be pretty desperate for arable land, they have bought huge tracts of land in Africa too.
Probably (at least partially) because the increasing pollution, lack of clean water and desertifaction of their own land. A billion+ people is alot of mouths to feed, especially if they love high intensity produce like pork and rice......IMHO.
 
#3
Wouldn't surprise me if the next 25 years or so China didn't just annex a chunk of Siberia. The Russians hardly use it, and they are in demographic decline, so would they even be in a position to put up more than token resistance to such a takeover?
 
#4
I always love the way Russian eyes start to swivel the moment Chinese presence in the RFE is mentioned. I wonder how many of them even know what the Jewish Autonomous Oblast was called prior to the Treaty of Aigun or where the 'Sixty-Four Villages East of the Heilongjiang' went? I would suggest they lay off the 'historical' justifications for their presence and start concentrating on how they can convince their neighbours to stick to the current agreement when they themselves have a long track record of reneging on treaties with Chinese governments.

As for the modern situation, it's a pragmatic solution. Russia can't muster the manpower needed to make use of that amount of land - it can't even retain its own local population. It can make use of the population potential of its neighbour to farm and cultivate, while retaining ownership of both the land and the profits thereof.
 
#5
petergriffen said:
They seem to be pretty desperate for arable land, they have bought huge tracts of land in Africa too.
Probably (at least partially) because the increasing pollution, lack of clean water and desertifaction of their own land. A billion+ people is alot of mouths to feed, especially if they love high intensity produce like pork and rice......IMHO.
The worst environmental effects are being felt in the far north and far south - respectively the big wheat and rice growing regions. They're still net exporters of foodstuffs - indeed, the WTO has been reported as ranking them the largest agricultural exporter by value of produce - but a large amount of that is of a quality used for processing rather than consumption e.g. rice into rice flour etc.

They do also import a great deal of their food consumption, particularly meats, which means overall they're dependant on imports for their current consumption patterns and this is likely to increase in the future as incomes rise and more people can afford the luxury of a nice bit of silverside.
 
#6
smartascarrots said:
I always love the way Russian eyes start to swivel the moment Chinese presence in the RFE is mentioned. I wonder how many of them even know what the Jewish Autonomous Oblast was called prior to the Treaty of Aigun or where the 'Sixty-Four Villages East of the Heilongjiang' went? I would suggest ...
Did your eyes swivel when you were writing your rant? What you were on about?

As for your advice to lay off the 'historical' justifications for Russian presence in the region, China was't there first either;

Sorry, but apart from few border skirmishes Russia and China lived in peace for as far as records go, and I am sure they will continue to do so regardless of what "smartascarrots" think about it.
 
#7
Domovoy said:
Did your eyes swivel when you were writing your rant? What you were on about?
Hardly a rant, more a wry observation on the flexibility of Russian principle. I was on about the modern Russian insistence to the point of obsession on territorial integrity over land that was gained at the expense of another state. Why is sauce never a feature in Russian recipes for gander?

Domovoy said:
As for your advice to lay off the 'historical' justifications for Russian presence in the region, China was't there first either;
No, there were quite a few others there before the Chinese, going back in a chain that stretched to before there was even such a thing as ‘Russia’. But, in what would normally be described as ‘modern history’, the Qing Empire and the Republic of China ruled a substantial amount of land north of the Amur in what is now the Russian Far East.

I’d suggest you have a look where the Treaty of Nerchinsk determined the border between the two Empires should be; then the same for the Treaty of Aigun to see where it determined the border; then take a look at the modern border. There’s quite a substantial difference, particularly in respect of what used to be called Manchuria and also in what is now Mongolia.

To expect only the other side to regard a treaty as a final settlement after all that history is a bit naive, no?

Domovoy said:
Sorry, but apart from few border skirmishes Russia and China lived in peace for as far as records go, and I am sure they will continue to do so regardless of what "smartascarrots" think about it.
Various ‘Chinas’ have fought various ‘Russias’ over this land on a fairly regular basis since the Muscovites started expanding into the area in the 17th Century. The size of the forces engaged varied markedly from conflict to conflict but given the strategic gains/losses involved those conflicts always constituted rather more than skirmishes.

If you define ‘living in peace’ as giving up land to put an end to war then the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk should mark the modern boundary between Germany and Russia.
 
#9
smartascarrots said:
I was on about the modern Russian insistence to the point of obsession on territorial integrity over land that was gained at the expense of another state.

Why is sauce never a feature in Russian recipes for gander?

.
Can you name me a country that didn't gain its territory at the expense of another state?

Two reasons:
1. As I already pointed out, China wasn't the first on those territories;
2. China doesn't seem to dispute them.
 
#11
smartascarrots said:
But, in what would normally be described as ‘modern history’, the Qing Empire and the Republic of China ruled a substantial amount of land north of the Amur in what is now the Russian Far East.

I’d suggest you have a look where the Treaty of Nerchinsk determined the border between the two Empires should be; .
Want to have a look at the territory of the Russian Empire? Does it mean it still belong to Russia? No? Why? After all it was in time of "modern history"...

If memory serves me well, Russia and China settled their border disputes quite recently. What is your problem?
 
#12
During 2008, a couple of international borders sort of, well, moved - albeit not conclusively settled.

Maybe the next one will see China gain some territory. :wink:
 
#13
Ive come to the view that a big part of the reason for Russia being so agressive in its effort to reaquire its empire, is based on need for a larger population base in order to deal with the coming chinese threat in the future.
 
#14
smartascarrots said:
I always love the way Russian eyes start to swivel the moment Chinese presence in the RFE is mentioned. I wonder how many of them even know what the Jewish Autonomous Oblast was called prior to the Treaty of Aigun or where the 'Sixty-Four Villages East of the Heilongjiang' went? I would suggest they lay off the 'historical' justifications for their presence and start concentrating on how they can convince their neighbours to stick to the current agreement when they themselves have a long track record of reneging on treaties with Chinese governments.

As for the modern situation, it's a pragmatic solution. Russia can't muster the manpower needed to make use of that amount of land - it can't even retain its own local population. It can make use of the population potential of its neighbour to farm and cultivate, while retaining ownership of both the land and the profits thereof.
Bugger the whinging posters here, smartie, I wish I knew a quarter as much about China and her history as you seem to, and you can rant(?) away as much as your little heart desires for me, because I lap it up. What the devil was the Jewish Autonomous Oblast? When you're talking about the Red Sea Pedestrians it's always a case of Cherchez la cash, so what were they up to in Siberia -- flogging second hand samovars or running the bulk salt retail business?
 
#15
Tom Clancy wrote a book about a war between the Chinese and the Russians a few years ago, called:

"The Bear and the Dragon"

The Americans won, of course, :cool:

Tam
 
#16
Understand that these Chinese 'Squatters' are allowed by China to have all the children they want.
Squatters Right will be a very difficult case in years to come when the locals suddenly find the minerals needed by China for it's growing industry.

john
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#17
Birobizhan was the name of the territory, a wee London Klezmer band sing a rather natty song about it, not so much an automous settlement , more like a Bantustan, tbh.

Any way, the 21st & 22st centuries seem to be a posit return to the status qou of "all under heaven".

Dunno about you chaps but I'm off to invest in opium, need to grab that Chinese silver somehow!
 
#18
Googled it. Right, so that was where Israel should have been?

Actually there was once a proposal for the Zionists to be granted territory in North West Australia -- which would have put them on top of one of the greatest resource treasure troves on the planet.

Thank God it never happened, or we'd be living in refugee camps in the desert with American drones overhead slaughtering us. And being accused of being anti-semetic terrorists if we shook our fists at them
 
#19
littlejim said:
What the devil was the Jewish Autonomous Oblast? When you're talking about the Red Sea Pedestrians it's always a case of Cherchez la cash, so what were they up to in Siberia -- flogging second hand samovars or running the bulk salt retail business?
JAO is a piece of Russia Stalin gave to Jews to call theirs. But don't worry, you will find more Jews in Odessa, than in their "home land". :D
 
#20
Siddar said:
Ive come to the view that a big part of the reason for Russia being so agressive in its effort to reaquire its empire, is based on need for a larger population base in order to deal with the coming chinese threat in the future.
God!

THERE IS NO CHINEESE THREAT to Russia and never was. This "news" is wheeled out from time to time by those who become tired of waiting for Russia to fall apart along its small administrative borders or to croak for economic reasons.

There are more Chineese living in Moscow than in the whole of the Russian Far East!
 

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