China (not a great bunch of blokes) and the Uighur.

Do I deduce that you sourced the original text as a result of my post ?
I'd watched her speech and read the Chinese reporting, both of which matched the other and contradicted the preferred interpretation given it in western sources.

Why a cynic might suspect that the misinterpretation was deliberately chosen to give a false impression of what she actually said...

And the other side of both the First Opium War and the Boxer rebellion has been quite deliberately clouded by many modern reporters, who wish to present only one side of the story

The side which was entirely obscured for the previous 150-odd years.

It's understandable, really. We could hardly expect the Victorians to go around crowing about state-sponsored drug dealing or the moral rectitude of them forcing it on other countries to save the arse falling out of their own trousers. It's taken a while for the embarrassment to wear off to the point people can look through the post facto justifications at actions and intentions.
 
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Mattb

LE
China, like most communist country’s is sh*t scared of Muslim fundamentalists.
Hard to consider China as being communist in anything other than name.
Modern China is essentially a fascist state, and much like the Nazis (another lot who called themselves socialists, but weren’t) the Chinese are happy for you to be whatever you want religion-wise* as long as your religion isn’t more important to you than the nation. That’s why they have relative freedom of religion, but crack down very hard on anything that comes close to being more of a cult - see Falun Gong for example.

*With one obvious exception in the Nazis’ case, but that was more down to it being a linked to a race.
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
Hard to consider China as being communist in anything other than name.
Modern China is essentially a fascist state, and much like the Nazis (another lot who called themselves socialists, but weren’t) the Chinese are happy for you to be whatever you want religion-wise* as long as your religion isn’t more important to you than the nation. That’s why they have relative freedom of religion, but crack down very hard on anything that comes close to being more of a cult - see Falun Gong for example.

*With one obvious exception in the Nazis’ case, but that was more down to it being a linked to a race.
The Chinese state is communist. But communism like fascism have many, many similarities. Both require complete dedication to the state and anything that jeopardises that is a threat, including religion.

it’s difficult to completely ban a religion in an autocratic communist or fascist state. You’d spend a lot of time policing it to eradicate it that you now will cause backlash and hostility.

Stalin clamped down on religion but realised he couldn’t take it too far as orthodox Christianity was well rooted in the peasantry. It was tacitly tolerated, but the trouble makers were moved on. The same with Islam in the Soviet Union. It was tolerated but the troublemakers were moved on. That’s why you have so many, Turkmen, Tajik and Uzbeks in northern Afghanistan. Those are the ones who were given the choice to not be trouble makers and those that couldn’t promise were moved on.

even the Nazis tolerated the Catholic Church. But the troublemakers were dissapered.

Should you ever find your self on the Afghan/ Chinese border in Badakhshan you’ll see a border similar to Koreas DMZ. The Uigurs have followed the same path as a lot of Muslim areas and are now being seen as a threat to the Chinese state as evidenced by the ever increasing number of Uighur related terrorist incidents in China.
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer

Mattb

LE
Erm....not quite the case in Nazi Germany

Nazi Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses

You might also ask Pastor Niemoller

( Rabbit hole alert)

If you read the first paragraph of that, it supports what I said! Effectively, the beliefs of the JWs were incompatible with fascism (anti-state authority, pacifist) and so weren’t tolerated.
The Chinese state is communist.
Chambers said:
communism noun 1 a political ideology advocating a classless society, the abolition of private ownership and all sources of wealth and production being collectively owned and controlled by the people.
None of that really applies to modern China. It was communist back in Mao’s time, but it’s hard to see how they’re communist in anything other than name any more.
 
I praise the Islamic world in opening their arms to support and welcome their brothers and sisters suffering from persecution.
I find the BBC very choosy on what they report... Al Jazeera is a more neutral and open and to me preferable channel

Do I give a f**k on what China are doing to Muslims? Nope
 
Do I give a f**k on what China are doing to Muslims?
They're not doing anything to 'Muslims' beyond making imams register their qualifications and stopping children being inducted before adulthood.

The Uighur aren't they only Muslims in China - they're not even the only Muslims in Xinjiang. Xinjiang isn't the only place there are Uighur and it's not even the only place they're being smacked about heavily policed.

Ever wondered why?
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
@smartascarrots - I'm intrigued by your obvious close knowledge of the Chinese. Any special interest in the Library of the House ?

The modern Britannica video ( made a by a German company ZDF) gives a very slanted version of events in 1900, not least the outright lie that the Imperial Chinese Court

' ignored the Boxers, as they had their hands full with other reforms '

Far from it.

Basically, it is being presented to the modern untutored audience as an act of unprovoked Western aggression against peaceful welcoming China. Bullsh1t.
 

Winnet

War Hero
They're not doing anything to 'Muslims' beyond making imams register their qualifications and stopping children being inducted before adulthood.

The Uighur aren't they only Muslims in China - they're not even the only Muslims in Xinjiang. Xinjiang isn't the only place there are Uighur and it's not even the only place they're being smacked about heavily policed.

Ever wondered why?
The supply of methamphetamine? Child trafficking maybe?
 
Basically, it is being presented to the modern untutored audience as an act of unprovoked Western aggression against peaceful welcoming China
The Qing Empire was never particularly welcoming to Europeans. Only the Portuguese seemed to make a relatively peaceful ingress, but then they were happy to trade on Qing terms.

Missionaries were forced on the Empire as part of the peace settlement of the Opium Wars and were previously banned as a destabilising force - the Qing had networks of informants into the Philippines and Indian Ocean telling them what happened after missionaries got a foothold.

I guess whether you regard the Boxers as cause or symptom of conflict with Europe depends on how long term a view you take. Without missionaries, it's unlikely there would have been a Boxer Rebellion rather than something aimed at the Manchus.
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
yeah....let's blame the Nestorians.

Apparently (you would know better than me) they brought Christianity to the then capital of the Middle Kingdom Xian around the time our own King Alfred was burning somebody's bannocks. Tang Dynasty in old currency.

Christianity in China - Wikipedia.

The mother of a friend of mine was born in China, where her parents were working for the Methodist mission there post WWII and before 1949.

Friend's mum, and her daughter then 10 year old, escaped via Shanghai - but her husband was captured and imprisoned by the PLA, released after 4 years.

As I said elsewhere, Britain, wider Europe - vide Portuguese Jesuits - and China have a MUCH older relationship than China has with the United States....
 
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Apparently (you would know better than me) they brought Christianity to the then capital of the Middle Kingdom Xian around the time our own King Alfred was burning somebody's bannocks.
It depends on what you mean by 'brought Christianity'. They were Christians and they brought awareness of the creed, but they were not missionaries and were not allowed to actively recruit or convert.

Imperial China was a very small-c catholic place when it came to science and philosophy and the scholar class had an insatiable appetite for new ideas (hence the spread of Buddhism, for example) but they did not take kindly to the exclusivity of external organised religions, nor did the Imperial throne take kindly to the 'Trojan Horse' aspect of European Christianity viz the Philippines and Dutch East Indies.
 
Never mind Christianity (or any other Religion for that matter) as it is a Red Herring

This is a fairly easily digestible precise of what is going on in China right now.
I am sure Smartascarrots will be along to Re-educate me in a few minutes / camp somewhere bleak

 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
Aussies are rightly wary of this giant on their doorstep ....

' The long game....it's about China being the most dominant country in the region....'

Hmmm ...wonder what the Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force think of that.....

Edited to Add:

Hmmmm
1618480028784.png


Source:

Yoshihara, Toshi. JAPAN: ADAPTING TO HARSH REALITIES. Edited by Gary J. Schmitt, Strategic Studies Institute, US Army War College, 2020, pp. 155–186, A Hard Look at Hard Power: Assessing the Defense Capabilities of Key US Allies and Security Partners—Second Edition, www.jstor.org/stable/resrep27713.10 . Accessed 15 Apr. 2021.




Worth taking a look at this, to put all that into context:

What's Behind China's Nuclear Weapons Build Up?


China is an EXTANT nuclear power .......Australia remains under the shelter of the US umbrella. For how long ?

It would be ' quite interesting' to be a fly on the wall at AUSCANUKUS Zoom sessions* ;-)















* let's hope not......
 
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Nemesis44UK

LE
Book Reviewer
They're not doing anything to 'Muslims' beyond making imams register their qualifications and stopping children being inducted before adulthood.

The Uighur aren't they only Muslims in China - they're not even the only Muslims in Xinjiang. Xinjiang isn't the only place there are Uighur and it's not even the only place they're being smacked about heavily policed.

Ever wondered why?

Are you seriously saying that the Uighur aren't being interned in camps, women subjected to gang rapes and all the rest of it?
 
Are you seriously saying that the Uighur aren't being interned in camps, women subjected to gang rapes and all the rest of it?
They're certainly being interned in camps. As to all the rest of it, we have testimony from those with an obvious interest in lying that they are; and from those with an even more obvious interest in lying that they aren't.

I do know, from past history, that allegations of mass rape are common fuel for ethnic grievances from groups who hope to gain power through controlling ethnic identity. I also know that the sources of these particular allegations (WUC/ Adrian Zenz) have a dubious track record with fact and that the testimonials have been filtered through this same single conduit before coming to world view. Would you believe An Phoblacht as providing a wholly truthful account of Op Banner?

I also know how often such claims have turned out to be bollocks in the past, so I'm not about to accept these ones as authoritative on their own without some corroboration.
 
Are you seriously saying that the Uighur aren't being interned in camps, women subjected to gang rapes and all the rest of it?

Why intern them, with all that cost overhead of running the camps, when you can hire them out as slave labour instead and turn a profit for the Party?

'Uighur people from Xinjiang working in other parts of China are subject to "political" checks and work under strict "half-military" style management, according to new evidence discovered by Sky News.

'The Xinjiang government runs an official "labour transfer programme", according to its 2019 Five Year Plan, "so as to provide more employment opportunities for the surplus rural labour force". Workers are "transferred to employment" in other provinces of China.

'A report from the Australian Strategic Policy Institute estimated that at least 80,000 Uighur workers were transferred out of Xinjiang between 2017 and 2019, although it said the actual figure was likely to be far higher. Human rights groups have warned that such strict controls could amount to forced labour. The Chinese government has previously described such claims as "the lie of the century". It did not respond to our request for comment on this story. Facilitating labour transfers relies on a network of private agents.

'On Chinese websites, there are dozens of postings advertising Uighur labour, in batches of 50 to 100 workers. Baidu, the company hosting the job postings, did not respond to a request for comment. Those adverts suggest tight political and social controls. One states that the "security of workers will be guaranteed by the government".'


 

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