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China - and the dangerous drift to war in Asia

nanayon

Old-Salt
Because it was appropriate to set the facts straight when he was being promoted as a leader of the 1989 Tiananmen Movement. He wasn't, those were all students.


There are many more people in China who have done more to bring accountability and the rule of law to China than Liu did. He's been picked as a totem not because of what he represents to China but because of what he represents to the West.

Why didn't they pick Chai Ling, Wang Dan or Liu Gang instead?

Maybe it was related to their less than wholehearted embrace of 'western values' as a solution for China's ills?

You and the west can look at Liu more than the others.

But it doesn't change the fact that Liu went back to China and to write books about democracy and he paid the price for it, a fate both he and his wife were aware of likely to happen.

You're effort to marginalize him by such degree shows your pro-CCP troll agenda for one, and really pisses me off for another.
 

nanayon

Old-Salt
Wait, so Japan formally acknowledges Taiwan as part of China but will actively prevent any action of sovereign control - but they're entirely trustworthy and can be taken at their word?

If you say so...

The PRC has never had the military strength like it is acquiring in recent years.

Japan has responded. You're free to believe Taiwanese anti-ship missiles won't be joined by Japanese anti-ship missiles agasint any Type 75 LHDs or destroyer escorts that try to carry out out an assault on Taiwan in the next decade.
 
Some people, disheartened by any shortcomings from western governments, seek alternative but at the same time they are normalized the nature of the absolute and restrictive nature of a CCP controlled country, charmed by flashy looking sky scrapers. China is a big country.. some can argue that they need tight control to hold their country to together. But no reason for that type of regime to get toleration for expansion to places like the South China Sea or Taiwan.
Walter Duranty and a handful of others, were able to twist popular opinion about the soviet union. These days, we have thousands of Duranty's and fear of McCarthyism and racism, has succeeded into weakening our position that bit more, to the extent that were all losing the economic war that is already raging.

Taiwan is the first and last bulwark to a new cold war and the brains who want to pander to the CCP, should ponder a world post-invasion, as any occupation would be bloody and even if China is successful, the democracies would be forced to react and China would see its economy collapse in the moment of its victory.
 
But it doesn't change the fact that Liu went back to China and to write books about democracy
Who read them?

You're effort to marginalize him by such degree shows your pro-CCP troll agenda for one
Why then would I be promoting those who did far more for China than he did?

I'm actually more in favour of the Republic than the People's Republic but that doesn't mean I can't spot when the PRC has a point or when its actions are driven by objective conditions rather than dogma. The continual double-dealing over Taiwan and the recurring double-standard over Japanese expansionism are two of the most flagrant examples.

and really pisses me off for another
I shall somehow cry myself to sleep at nights.
 
Who read them?


Why then would I be promoting those who did far more for China than he did?

I'm actually more in favour of the Republic than the People's Republic but that doesn't mean I can't spot when the PRC has a point or when its actions are driven by objective conditions rather than dogma. The continual double-dealing over Taiwan and the recurring double-standard over Japanese expansionism are two of the most flagrant examples.


I shall somehow cry myself to sleep at nights.
What Japanese expansionism ?
 

MissingOTC

War Hero
Walter Duranty and a handful of others, were able to twist popular opinion about the soviet union. These days, we have thousands of Duranty's and fear of McCarthyism and racism, has succeeded into weakening our position that bit more, to the extent that were all losing the economic war that is already raging.

Taiwan is the first and last bulwark to a new cold war and the brains who want to pander to the CCP, should ponder a world post-invasion, as any occupation would be bloody and even if China is successful, the democracies would be forced to react and China would see its economy collapse in the moment of its victory.


"Taiwan is the first and last bulwark to a new cold war "

No, we will not see any public opinion in Europe or the US favour sending men out to die in the South China Sea to stop what is basically a Chinese civil war. If Taiwan falls we will get over it very quickly. Just like we got over Crimea. It's simply not worth it, not when you now count in the massive trade perks Europe and the UK have at stake. This may just be the US going it alone, and there is reluctance there too. After western governments see the Covid tab we have to ay off you can kiss goodbye to us trying to save the Tawainese.
 

MissingOTC

War Hero
How do you think China acquired Manchuria, Korea, Uighur, Tibet and even tried to invade Japan.. You said it yourself: 'Imperial' and that means, parts of the empire have colonial authorities and Taiwan was a colonial province and hong kong wasn't created by the Empire.

The uncomfortable truth is your facts, are predicated on the Imperial Chinese claim on Taiwan and by your twisted logic, Germany has a right to a piece of poland and Russia the Baltics which ignores the reality on the ground.

Whatever, Taiwan will never transisiton back to the Xi Dynasty without a fight because they're know the story of the uighurs and tibetans.

The Story or the Uighurs? Like the story of the Palestinians, the Kashmiris, the Iraqis, the Kurds?

Please stop the fake concern for muslim minorities just to try and score points in an argument.
 
What Japanese expansionism ?
The unilateral decision of the Japanese government to take over privately-owned the islands Minami-kojima, Kita-kojima, and Uotsuri in the Senkaku chain; and their continual claim.on Korean territory in the Dokdo Islands.

Incidentally, they were forbidden from expanding their territory by the terms of their surrender after WW2. Surely a treaty is a treaty?
 

IndiaGB

Clanker
I think you will find if China ever does decide to seek action against a democracy, it will by default force the world to react,
Which world? US, UK, AU, Canada???? What are they gonna do? Send their forces and Liberate Taiwan??

otherwise the entire internationalist rhetoric will collapse in on itself.
Who gives shit about internationalist rhetorics? Chinese? Doesn't matter to them.
 

nanayon

Old-Salt
The unilateral decision of the Japanese government to take over privately-owned the islands Minami-kojima, Kita-kojima, and Uotsuri in the Senkaku chain; and their continual claim.on Korean territory in the Dokdo Islands.

Incidentally, they were forbidden from expanding their territory by the terms of their surrender after WW2. Surely a treaty is a treaty?

About Dokdo/Takeshima, US maps in the 1950s show them as Japanese. Although me personally, I wouldn't particularly mind if they were ROKs. But before that, I would like to see better cooperation between the ROK and Japan. But regardless, Japan's case for is not weak although out of the three island dispute cases (Takeshima/Dokdo, the Senkaku islands, and the northern territory islands with Russia) ROK's case for Dokdo is the strongest. China's claim for the Senkaku islands is the weakest.

China recognized the whole island group as Japanese territory in the 1950s and 1960s. Maps from the PRC showed that. When the US returned the bulk of Okinawa islands to Japan administration, so too went the Senkaku islands. Then both the PRC and ROC (still under Chiang's dictatorship mind you) made the claim on Senkaku islands.

Contrary to both Dokdo/Takeshima and the northern territory islands, the China claim on the Senkaku islands came over 2 decades after WW2. It was literally out of no where. While on the other hand, the claims with Dokdo/Takeshima and the northern territories remined unresolved since the end of WW2 and stretched as that into the post-war era. When ROK first heard that Dokdo/Takeshima was going to be recognized as Japanese territory in the 1950s, they responded immediately with a forceful takeover of the island. That went against international law but the US did nothing because ROK was going to become an important ally. Quite likely the US recognized the islands as Japanese in the beginning because that was probably a way to get Japan into a good relation for a future ally as well. So in short, the US recognized them as Japanese but did nothing when the ROK landed a party onto the islands and began exercising administration on them. It is really strange to hear a Pro-CCP China poster be so resolute about international laws despite it being China putting out its period of humiliation under unfair treaties. Treaty is a treaty right? Maybe the Nationalists Army should have stayed out of Shanghai in 1937 as per treaty agreement? Being selective to the extreme!

So since the 1970s when China created its claim on the Senkaku islands, Japan did nothing on them. 1980s, 1990s, even though they were technically Japanese, they were kept in the status of being privately owned. During this time, China did nothing as well. A sort of under the table gentlemen's agreement to not fluster with the islands. But then who flustered first? Yeah, everyone can guess since I'm speaking on Japan's posture and against you who undoubtedly is Pro-CCP China. Surprise surprise, I say it was China that flustered first. You see, this war of words on forums in what can be perceived as a zero-sum game, Well when you make an opening statement to a new topic in Japan-China related stuff (in this case, the Senkakus right off the bat after Liu Xiaobo) that is so one-sided dispite you obviously knowing more so now I have to post as if argue in 100% form for the Japan side.

The Japanese government nationalized those islands in 2012. Why? Just suddenly did so without warning? Japan started the flustered with the islands first following the China claim in the early 1970s? No The PRC started sending ships there first. The first time Chinese vessels intruded into the island territory was in late 2008. Perhaps just a one time fluke. Some months afterwards, no intrusions into territorial water or in the contiguous zone. But Chinese vessels returned into the contiguous zone again in 2010 and one rammed a Japanese coast guard ship. But instead of what could be seen as a one time fluke like in 2008, Chinese vessels returned more often navigating withing the contiguous zone. They made another territorial intrusion in August 2011, then again in March 2012 and July 2012, all the while still sending stuff into the contiguous zone. Naturally diplomatic back and fourth would be going on at this time. But the message seemed clear by this point to the Japanese government.. intrusions by Chinese vessels into the Senkaku island territorial waters was likely to continue and any potential in having faith in keeping the calm around the Senkaku islands has been lost. So the Japanese government nationalized them in September 2012. All at the same time, go back a few months to April and May, Chinese vessels were making another sea territory fluster elsewhere at the same time, at Scarborough Shoal where the Philippines tried to assert its rights to its EEZ waters off from Luzon but China unilateral imposed a fishing ban on Filipino fishermen around Scarborough Shoal and put up a barrier to prevent Filipino fishermen from going in in July 2012. Obviously, the Philippines is much weaker and the US under Obama was unwilling to stand up for the Philippines against China about Scarborough Shaol. But Japan is stronger and was able to stand up to Chinese pressure and nationalized those islands and is able to get the US to declare that those islands fall under US obligations in the US-Japan alliance. After Japan nationalized the islands, China jacked up the number of times of Chinese vessels entering the contiguous zone and intruding into territorial water.
senkakuintrusions.jpg

Trends in Chinese Government and Other Vessels in the Waters Surrounding the Senkaku Islands, and Japan's Response
https://www.mofa.go.jp/files/000465486.pdf

If Chinese vessels had not started entering the Senkaku waters, it is reasonable to assume that those islands would have never been nationalized by the Japanese government.
 
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About Dokdo/Takeshima, US maps in the 1950s show them as Japanese.
Too bad. International law does not give the US any right to unilaterally transfer ownership of territory, nor the right to unilaterally undo treaty obligations.

Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku, and such minor islands as we determine.

When the US returned the bulk of Okinawa islands to Japan administration, so too went the Senkaku islands.
Administration does not confer sovereignty. If it did, many of these problems would be easier to resolve, although not without much bleating from the disadvantaged parties who're currently both basing claims on possession and simultaneously denying that mere possession gives the occupant any rights.
1980s, 1990s, even though they were technically Japanese, they were kept in the status of being privately owned.
That's an outright lie. They were technically, legally and actually privately owned and nothing to do with the Japanese state. That's the reason neither RoC nor PRC actively pressed a claim at prior to their nationalisation - because there was no competing state claim to the islands for them to contest.

If Chinese vessels had not started entering the Senkaku waters, it is reasonable to assume that those islands would have never been nationalized by the Japanese government.
If only China had recognised the divine right of Japan to breach its treaties and unilaterally claim additional territory, all would have been well.

Just like the good old days of the 1930s, eh?
 

nanayon

Old-Salt
That's an outright lie. They were technically, legally and actually privately owned and nothing to do with the Japanese state. That's the reason neither RoC nor PRC actively pressed a claim at prior to their nationalisation - because there was no competing state claim to the islands for them to contest.

There it is, one of the troll tools in the bag of trolls. To just say the opposite of what was just started, and to say it in a way that frames what was said earlier as saying something different by using punch line statements such as your opening "That's an outright lie". Here is the specific part again in the post immediately above your response:

The first time Chinese vessels intruded into the island territory was in late 2008. Perhaps just a one time fluke. Some months afterwards, no intrusions into territorial water or in the contiguous zone. But Chinese vessels returned into the contiguous zone again in 2010 and one rammed a Japanese coast guard ship. But instead of what could be seen as a one time fluke like in 2008, Chinese vessels returned more often navigating withing the contiguous zone. They made another territorial intrusion in August 2011, then again in March 2012 and July 2012, all the while still sending stuff into the contiguous zone. Naturally diplomatic back and fourth would be going on at this time. But the message seemed clear by this point to the Japanese government.. intrusions by Chinese vessels into the Senkaku island territorial waters was likely to continue and any potential in having faith in keeping the calm around the Senkaku islands has been lost. So the Japanese government nationalized them in September 2012.

So I repeat, if Chinese vessels had not started entering the Senkaku waters, it is reasonable to assume that those islands would have never been nationalized by the Japanese government.

I have nothing more to say for the time being to you as you have established yourself as a troll. Perhaps again next month when you go on a troll raid again. Forum activity should not benefit from trolls.

Have a good day.
 
Who read them?


Why then would I be promoting those who did far more for China than he did?

I'm actually more in favour of the Republic than the People's Republic
but that doesn't mean I can't spot when the PRC has a point or when its actions are driven by objective conditions rather than dogma. The continual double-dealing over Taiwan and the recurring double-standard over Japanese expansionism are two of the most flagrant examples.


I shall somehow cry myself to sleep at nights.

Never trust a man who doesn't love dogs and hate the Chinese. ;)
 
"Taiwan is the first and last bulwark to a new cold war "

No, we will not see any public opinion in Europe or the US favour sending men out to die in the South China Sea to stop what is basically a Chinese civil war. If Taiwan falls we will get over it very quickly. Just like we got over Crimea. It's simply not worth it, not when you now count in the massive trade perks Europe and the UK have at stake. This may just be the US going it alone, and there is reluctance there too. After western governments see the Covid tab we have to ay off you can kiss goodbye to us trying to save the Tawainese.
How many people died in the Russian seizure of Crimea ?
How many Democratic citizens of Taiwan, how many women and children may die in a Chinese Aggression ?

Bodybags matter and even if China pulls off a successful invasion. The sanctions will be of a magnitude which will wreck the chinese economic miracle. One could go even further and state that China, has a very small window, as many countries due to covid have realised the overreliance on china and started the process of decoupling.
 

MissingOTC

War Hero
How many people died in the Russian seizure of Crimea ?
How many Democratic citizens of Taiwan, how many women and children may die in a Chinese Aggression ?

Bodybags matter and even if China pulls off a successful invasion. The sanctions will be of a magnitude which will wreck the chinese economic miracle. One could go even further and state that China, has a very small window, as many countries due to covid have realised the overreliance on china and started the process of decoupling.


Right, so straight after we sanction China assume we can go ahead and sanction Israel and India if we are looking at number of deaths and illegal occupation?

When you say sanction China you do realise that is the geopoltical version of a man with a tenner in his pocket threatening to sanction fast food outlets in favour of a Michelin starred place? Do you have any idea just how reliant the US and Europe are in terms of global trade with China?

Do you realise that after US withdrawl from the TPP, all the same countries went along and created a seperate agreement without the US right?

You do realise China is a larger trading partner for Europe then the US is now?

In 2028 China will be the world's largest economy?

How would you enforce such sanctions?? Most of the world would not join in.

The small window is ours, not China's, right now as China outpaces the west we would be wise in coming to a reasonable accomdation, not every thing has to be a straight option for war.
 
Right, so straight after we sanction China assume we can go ahead and sanction Israel and India if we are looking at number of deaths and illegal occupation?

When you say sanction China you do realise that is the geopoltical version of a man with a tenner in his pocket threatening to sanction fast food outlets in favour of a Michelin starred place? Do you have any idea just how reliant the US and Europe are in terms of global trade with China?

Do you realise that after US withdrawl from the TPP, all the same countries went along and created a seperate agreement without the US right?

You do realise China is a larger trading partner for Europe then the US is now?

In 2028 China will be the world's largest economy?

How would you enforce such sanctions?? Most of the world would not join in.

The small window is ours, not China's, right now as China outpaces the west we would be wise in coming to a reasonable accomdation, not every thing has to be a straight option for war.
So, appeasement?
 
Right, so straight after we sanction China assume we can go ahead and sanction Israel and India if we are looking at number of deaths and illegal occupation?

When you say sanction China you do realise that is the geopoltical version of a man with a tenner in his pocket threatening to sanction fast food outlets in favour of a Michelin starred place? Do you have any idea just how reliant the US and Europe are in terms of global trade with China?

Do you realise that after US withdrawl from the TPP, all the same countries went along and created a seperate agreement without the US right?

You do realise China is a larger trading partner for Europe then the US is now?

In 2028 China will be the world's largest economy?

How would you enforce such sanctions?? Most of the world would not join in.

The small window is ours, not China's, right now as China outpaces the west we would be wise in coming to a reasonable accomdation, not every thing has to be a straight option for war.
The self deception is clear to me, but less so to yourself....Any campaign to seize a democratic country like Taiwan, would be very very bloody for both sides and all in the glare of a very hungry media and all the status quo arguments you've applied, would dissolve in an instant + china might fail and be forced to escalate the conflict and lead to potential civil disorder problems internally.

As for accomadation, that is essentially blackmail and its been tried and failed. Because the right to self determination is a fundamental right and if the UK couldn't offload a few thousand kelpers onto argentina, why do you think 23 million Taiwanese people would go along with your accomadation.
 
Which world? US, UK, AU, Canada???? What are they gonna do? Send their forces and Liberate Taiwan??


Who gives shit about internationalist rhetorics? Chinese? Doesn't matter to them.
Why do you think they would need to liberate them, unlikely a Chinese invasion would get a foothold with the forces in the area, do you think?
 

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