China - and the dangerous drift to war in Asia

Indeed, yet according to the article, "Taiwanese fighter jets reportedly "drove off" Chinese Su-30 Flankers after the latter briefly entered the island's air defense identification zone earlier today.

Getting to decide who can fly where is the sort of action that's usually reserved for sovereign airspace, yet this isn't being protested by the usual suspects. I wonder why?


The PRC hasn't enforced anything other than identification from aircraft on courses towards PRC airspace transiting its ADIZ. In fact, it asks for considerably less than the US asks for in its southern ADIZ - which extends over sovereign Mexican territory.
The Drive are basing their story on this Reuter report:
Taiwan’s air force warned off several Chinese fighter jets that briefly entered Taiwan’s air defence identification zone to its southwest on Tuesday, the defence ministry said.

The Su-30 fighters, some of China’s most advanced jets, were given verbal warnings to leave and Taiwanese air force jets “drove away” the intruders, ministry added.
Note the use of “drove away” in quotes, suggesting that Reuters are not necessarily taking it literally.

First we have to keep in mind that Taiwan speak Chinese, so the use of the phrase “drove away” may be a translation choice that could have different meaning in the original text. Secondly, it may be standard Taiwanese foreign ministry hyperbole and not reflect what actually took place.

Reuters when using their own words used the term "warned off".
 
First we have to keep in mind that Taiwan speak Chinese, so the use of the phrase “drove away” may be a translation choice that could have different meaning in the original text. Secondly, it may be standard Taiwanese foreign ministry hyperbole and not reflect what actually took place.
Nice spin.

What happened was an intercept.

Taiwan’s government has in recent months taken an increasingly hard line and drawn its own immediate red line over any further incursions across the Median Line in the Taiwan Strait. A stance that the CCP is challenging. What is not a ‘warning about boundaries’ in a military interception?

Careful, bending over backwards too far puts pressure in the spine...if you have one? Or...your sympathies are for the ‘other side’ along with your orange friend.
 
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mcphee1948

War Hero
Nice spin.

What happened was an intercept.

What is not a ‘warning about boundaries’ in a military interception?

Careful bending over backwards too far puts pressure in the spine...if you have one?
Chinese is a very simple language. It cannot convey precise shades of meaning.
Thus, a Chinese air-controller can only say things like: "You go away quick. You not go, we shoot you."

This is admirably direct. But leaves little room for negotiation.
 
Chinese is a very simple language. It cannot convey precise shades of meaning.
Thus, a Chinese air-controller can only say things like: "You go away quick. You not go, we shoot you."

This is admirably direct. But leaves little room for negotiation.
Bullshit.
 
What happened was an intercept.
In non-territorial airspace.

Even assuming we ignore our own governments' positions and accept Taiwan as a sovereign nation.
 

Le_addeur_noir

On ROPS
On ROPs
Taiwan's own policy has always been that Taiwan is a province of China. The government in Taipei and the government in Beijing just disagree on which of them is the legitimate government of all of China.

The political system in Taiwan originated when the KMT were defeated on the mainland and retreated to Taiwan. So far as I am aware they never renounced their goal of returning to the mainland and resuming their "rightful" rule of all of China.

The local Taiwanese were then excluded from power locally and the defeated mainlanders under the KMT ruled Taiwan as an oppressive dictatorship. Eventually after many years, their power faded and local Taiwanese based groups were able to wrestle power from them.

In the early days the KMT were backed by the Soviet Union and organised along Marxist-Leninist lines and many of their top people were trained in political techniques in Moscow. The CPC were ordered by Moscow to cooperate with the KMT. Mao was a KMT member for a while.

The KMT and the CPC eventually had a falling out however, and the KMT conducted a purge of CPC members. The Japanese stuck their oar in the water, and it turned into a three way war, with various minor warlords adding their two cents worth into the conflict as well. With the split between the KMT and the CPC, the US chose to back the KMT and the USSR backed the CPC. The KMT's support was in the cities, while the CPC's support was in the countryside. The KMT proceeded to lose the civil war and retreated to Taiwan, which had recently been returned to China after decades as a colony of Japan.

The Taiwanese were not enamoured with being taken over by the KMT, so the latter began a brutal program of repression, imprisoning or executing tens of thousands of political opponents.

Chiang ruled Taiwan under martial law, as what was supposed to be a "temporary" measure until he could reorganise his army to invade the mainland and take over again. That "temporary" martial law period was to last for decades as the planned invasion of the mainland never materialised.

The KMT ruled as a one party state, with power held by an ageing clique of legislators who had come from the mainland, under the fiction that they were the legitimate government in exile. Their power faded as old age and the grim reaper gradually took them.

The original political philosophy of the KMT was anti-capitalist, anti-western, and highly nationalist. The commanding heights of the economy were to be nationalised and under state control. Quite frankly, the modern day CPC is probably closer to the KMT than they are to the party of Mao. Had the KMT defeated the CPC and retained power, I'm not sure that the political and diplomatic position of China under them would be greatly different from what it is today under the CPC, aside from Taiwan being under the direct rule of Beijing and relegated to being a minor island province of no great importance.

@smartascarrots can probably provide a much better summary of this than I can as I am sure I have missed much nuance as well as glossed over many of the internal contradictions in the KMT.
At least from 1996 onwards Taiwan has had free elections-something that will NOT happen if Ihla Formosa becomes part of the PRC.

Chiang Ka Shek ( correct spelling?) is a dirty word in Taiwan,now. The main airport at Taipei was re-named some years ago.

I've spent a bit of time in Taiwan, great people, and I would hate to see the communists ever take over them.

I've never read it, but apparently a book called Formosa betrayed written by a former US diplomat posted there is well worth a read.
 

Le_addeur_noir

On ROPS
On ROPs
How do the Taiwanese look back on the Japanese occupation from 1895-1945? I have heard that they were more positive about it than some countries. The Koreans still look back with intense anger at the 35 year Japanese occupation especially with the comfort women. The Japanese stripped Korea of anything they could. Its the only thing that unit's the two Koreas. I still daren't say anything positive about Japan without inviting the wrath of Mrs Par Avion.
I've spent a fair bit of time in Taiwan between 1999 and 2006. Apart from one Air Force officer I ran into who hated the Japanese, there is not very much (open at least) hostility to the Japanese. The Taiwanese are sure glad to attract the tourist Yen. Taiwan and Japan have reciprocal visa-free travel agreements. Many Taiwanese visit Japan.

Japan industrialised the country, and built the railways. Which incedently why the Taiwanese rail system runs on the left hand side, like the Japanese rail network.

Another interesting point about Ihla Formosa, the scantily clad young girls ( not underage) in glass boxes at the side of the road are NOT prostitutes, they are there to attract drivers in to sell cigarettes and other items-totally above board. The police actively close down brothels in Taiwan. Most (not all) Taiwanese drive on the right, and have a tendency not to stop at red traffic lights.
 
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Le_addeur_noir

On ROPS
On ROPs
Chinese is a very simple language. It cannot convey precise shades of meaning.
Thus, a Chinese air-controller can only say things like: "You go away quick. You not go, we shoot you."

This is admirably direct. But leaves little room for negotiation.
Not that simple. Some 7,000 Mandarin characters to remember. We've got 26 letters.
 
Chinese is a very simple language. It cannot convey precise shades of meaning.
Thus, a Chinese air-controller can only say things like: "You go away quick. You not go, we shoot you."

This is admirably direct. But leaves little room for negotiation.
I take it that you haven't studied Chinese?
 

Le_addeur_noir

On ROPS
On ROPs
The Drive are basing their story on this Reuter report:

Note the use of “drove away” in quotes, suggesting that Reuters are not necessarily taking it literally.

First we have to keep in mind that Taiwan speak Chinese, so the use of the phrase “drove away” may be a translation choice that could have different meaning in the original text. Secondly, it may be standard Taiwanese foreign ministry hyperbole and not reflect what actually took place.

Reuters when using their own words used the term "warned off".
On the subject of Taiwanese airspace, on the 9th a US military airplane overflew Taiwan. Something that is usually a red rag to a bull as far as Beijing goes. So far no comment from the PRC on this.
 
I've never read it, but apparently a book called Formosa betrayed written by a former US diplomat posted there is well worth a read.
It's actually pretty shit and is based wholly in the author's disillusionment with US China policy rather than any understanding of Taiwan/RoC in those days.
 
So far no comment from the PRC on this.
Probably still trying to get over the US approval for the F16 Viper (V) Block 70/72 multirole combat aircraft to the ROCAF.

It is slowly getting through to the CCP that there is some serious opposition to them appropriating the S China Sea, their attempted economic take over of the globe, their massive cyber theft, quite apart from a seemingly growing global demand for an explanation of their highly questionable behaviour over COVID 19.

In short despite the orange one’s protestations that they are jolly good eggs, backed up by his flowery buddy who seems to feel they need excusing, the rest of the world is getting an eyeful of just how unpleasant a bunch they really are.
 
I thought you had me on ignore, knobcheese?
He has form for that....you might want to ask for his views on KSA and how he managed to work there for so long, fuming with pent up moral indignation.
 
He has form for that....you might want to ask for his views on KSA and how he managed to work there for so long, fuming with pent up moral indignation.
Since he's a no-nothing with far too large a mouth and in inversely-proportional intellect, I think I'll stick to prodding him into foam-speckled apoplexy.
 
Since he's a no-nothing with far too large a mouth and in inversely-proportional intellect, I think I'll stick to prodding him into foam-speckled apoplexy.
I had never heard of him until this thread but he is, clearly, not the sharpest tool in the box.
 
I had never heard of him until this thread but he is, clearly, not the sharpest tool in the box.
He would not even be the sharpest apple in the box.
 
I had never heard of him until this thread but he is, clearly, not the sharpest tool in the box.
One of the many 'kipperatti on site. Put me on ignore when I pointed out one of his posts was not his own work and there was no link to source. Then commented on other posts...happens a lot.

Don't get me wrong on KSA mind, I was very much aware of the moral ambiguities when working there and I'd probably have stayed much longer had it not been for my accident. I knew I could say "That's it, I can't work to support these people" at any time, it was my choice.
 
Well, They started...as predicted. The mask finally slips.
We are seeing a lot of masks slipping these days, funny that.

China annexes 60 square km of India in Ladakh as simmering tensions erupt between two superpowers


China has occupied more than sixty square kilometres of Indian territory in eastern Ladakh, according to a senior Indian Army source, in a dramatic escalation of the simmering tension between the two Asian superpowers.
The Daily Telegraph can reveal that up to 12,000 Chinese troops pushed over the border into India last month amid border clashes as Beijing looks to slap down Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi over his ever-closer relationship with the United States.
The move echoes Xi Jinping's expansionism in the South China Sea where Beijing have moved to construct military bases in contested territory and has been unchallenged due to its superior military.
The United Nations is calling for restraint, and wants talks between the two nations to any escalation of the conflict.

Konchok Stanzin, a councillor from the Chushul constituency, where the incursion has taken place, told The Telegraph: "In the past, we have witnessed face-off between two armies and the situation would cool down within hours.



"It’s the first time we are seeing standoff for over a month. We are worried for our lives and our land."
There have been reports this week of some de-escalation, but it is unclear whether this is rooted in on-the-ground movement, or is simply India trying to save face.
Beijing and New Delhi have patrolled either side of the Line of Actual Control (LAC), which splits Chinese Tibet from Indian Ladakh since a ceasefire was agreed in 1962.
Indian patrols in eastern Ladakh pause over winter and spring as heavy snowfall in the Himalayas makes terrain treacherous.
But the coronavirus pandemic meant they were slow to reinforce this year and Chinese troops took advantage, crossing over the LAC on May 5 and 6 at four locations.
A total of forty square kilometres were occupied at Pangong Tso and twenty square kilometres at Galwan River, with smaller incursions at Hot Springs and Demchok, a senior Indian Army source told the Telegraph.


Satellite photos of China's Ngari Gansa civil-military airport base taken on April 1, left, and May 17, 2020, near the border with India show development Credit: Planet Labs via AP


Seventy Indian troops were injured in fist-fighting and stone-throwing as they tried to stop the advance.
Weapons are not used when Chinese and Indian soldiers clash, as this is understood as a full declaration of war.
India, which is admitting Chinese troops are present in "sizeable numbers", is trying to use ongoing bilateral talks to persuade China to retreat from the areas it has occupied.
But China is understood to have built defences at Pangong Tso and moved up to 12,000 troops to the new frontier, according to well-placed sources.
India has also scaled up the presence of troops, transported artillery and Boforus guns to Ladakh.
Confronting India along the border is Beijing’s way of putting New Delhi in its place – Chinese officials are unwilling to tolerate what they view as growing swagger from India, a strategic competitor and neighbour, under Mr. Modi.
Lin Minwang, a Chinese foreign policy expert at Fudan University, said: “Modi's overall diplomacy has been inclined to ally with the US. China is actually very disappointed with India right now.”
India’s infrastructural development along the border - including a road in Lipulekh which has irked emerging Chinese ally Nepal - are viewed by Beijing as “backstabbing China while it’s in a weak position [and] suppressed in a broader strategic competition with the US, so it has made China very angry.”
While Chinese officials have said little publicly, the foreign ministry is defending its actions as necessary and even restrained in response to provocation from India - language similar to how the government justifies territorial claims in the South China Sea.
Tensions during the coronavirus pandemic haven’t helped.


Kanti Prasad Bajpai, an expert on China-India relations and professor at the National University of Singapore, said: “India sent supplies to China and felt the Chinese weren’t very grateful – China publicly thanked countries for sending supplies, but never thanked India publicly.”
As the pandemic spread further afield, India – like other nations – had to scrap poor quality medical supplies purchased from China.
Mr Bajpai said:“The Indians felt they were cheated by the Chinese. China rejected accusations that they had gypped the Indians. Around that, there was a bit of bad blood.”
Mr Modi’s move to project himself as a bold leader both at home and abroad also puts him at odds with Mr Xi’s same tactic to fashion a strongman image.
Experts say a full-scale war remains unlikely largely because of the operating challenges at high altitudes, with a lengthy de-escalation process as neither side will want to give the impression of caving.
But until China and India finally agree on a border demarcation – which they’ve never been able to do – “the possibility of a border skirmish, limited border conflict, or full-fledged conventional war cannot be taken off the table,” said Monika Chansoria, a China specialist and senior fellow at the Japan Institute of International Affairs.

Source:
 
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China has occupied more than sixty square kilometres of Indian territory in eastern Ladakh, according to a senior Indian Army source
To translate from Hindi: "We didn't really get our arses handed us in 1962, honest!"

Pangong Tso has been disputed since the establishment of the Republic of India, even predating the PRC. There have been at least two other minor stramashes over this same piece of land since the Sino-Indian War.
 

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