China - and the dangerous drift to war in Asia

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by sunnoficarus, Mar 25, 2013.

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  1. So far as I know, the prime example in this century or the last of annexing territory based on irredentist principles or pure colonialism is Russia. Parts of Finland, the Baltic states, Kaliningrad, eastern Poland, the Kuriles and Crimea. Possibly transnistria and South Ossetia. Missing anything?
    China does seem to have a firm line in ensuring a cultural (not sure ethnic is a good description of Han) settling of all territory under their control which might be a kind of internal colonialism.
  2. As Tanzania’s largest investors ( Tanganyika ceased to be some time ago) I have a feeling they may have opened up a tad more than sausages.
    China Emerges Tanzania’s Major Investor - Ventures Africa
    Your facts are sometimes a little off my old China.
  3. So no sausages? Exactly.
  4. Biggest complaint in Africa is the habit Chinese companies seem to have of winning a contract, then importing most of the labour from China (and the security). If it's an infrastructure project, there might be local benefit, but often with industry and mining the cries of colonialism are heard.
  5. And the curious habit of then intermarrying with the local population.
    As Lap Cheong and rice is a staple dish for workers it is highly unlikely that they are not locally made with the numbers of Chinese workers in Tanzania.
  6. Perhaps Nigel Farrage should offer his consulting services in Africa.
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  7. How does Israel rank in all this, and what measures do you think we should take with respect to them?
  8. All depends on what you mean and what you're angling at, doesn't it?
    In terms of percentage increase of territory, quite high. About as high as the potential state that once wanted to eradicate it would have if the fortunes of war had gone the other way.
    In terms of actual ground, bit of a blip, really. Especially after handing back the Sinai.
    Also serves as a future warning for those who follow such paths as, given demographics and the failure to either fully relinquish the un-annexed occupied territories or fully eject the population thereof, Israel is unlikely to be a Jewish majority state for many more decades.
    Now, given that I made no suggestions as to what should happen to Russia, I don't see why I should suggest any measures towards Israel. This is your circus and these are your monkeys.
    What do you suggest we do to both?
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  9. As you made a broad statement about several countries in Asia, it was natural to ask about yet another well known case in Asia. As for asking about your recommendations, well we are discussing events in Asia so it seemed relevant to see if you had any general suggestions as to what should be done about all of them.

    It was your post I was replying to.

    Perhaps we should start with making up our minds as to whether to base our responses on principle or self interest. We seem to get the two concepts confused at times.
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  10. No. That's all stuff and nonsense.
    We may have been talking about several countries in Asia, but you decided to take it outside of Asia.
    Your assumption was that by bringing up Israel, you would produce an example that I would be uncomfortable with.
    You have no idea what my opinion on Israel is, and indeed made an error in your assumption, but I decided to be coy because you were just so obvious.

    It wasn't relevant to ask what I think should be done because, I repeat, I made no suggestions about remedying events that occurred over a period of more than 70 years.
    Again, you were looking to score a point based on your erroneous assumptions.
    I infer that you were trying to play down my references to Russia by the age old ploy of "what-aboutism", complete with, may I hazard a guess, the inevitable irony that the "what-about" is in fact, a situation you probably disapprove of while wanting to excuse the situation I implicitly decried?
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2017
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  11. But in India's case "all that gear" means "a little bit of this, a little bit of that, a lot of false starts and no prototype ever enters production before it's obsolete and its replacement is on the same track".
    Just getting a rifle would be a good start.
  12. seaweed

    seaweed LE Book Reviewer

    It would be interesting to see an informed comparison of this against a T45 and the most modern US equivalent and whose systems the Chinese ones most resemble. Time and money spent on industrial espionage are seldom wasted.
  13. Taken from HenriKs blog

    Croiseur ou destroyer ? Les détails sur le premier Type 055 | East Pendulum

    From Henri K blog what surprising is he said this ship is constructed with much higher level of modular construction meaning it will spend less time outfitting. And of course much better sensor and battle management integration than type 52D.As well more function is realized by software instead of hardware making it easier to update and upgrade. As I said before it is a watershed moment in Chinese naval design and construction
    7 and a half years after the launch of the project, the first Chinese destroyer moving more than 12,000 tons full load is launched, this Wednesday June 28 in the morning, at Shanghai Changxing Shipyard Jiangnan. This new class of first line surface building, Type 055 , is in the process of becoming the new flagship of the Chinese navy.

    "A ship that has not tasted wine will taste blood," says an English saying. This first Chinese Type 055, who already tasted a bottle of champagne this morning during his baptism, will he also taste the blood of Chinese sailors like any other?

    While waiting to see sailing in all seas this new class of Chinese destroyer, let us review what we know about her already.

    The crew of the first Type 055 lined up under the ship (Photo: PLA Navy)

    Type 055, an almost invisible revolution ...
    Institutional communication bodies have been both discreet and open this time about launching the first Type 055, which makes millions of enthusiasts jump in China - discreet, as usual, on the description and The overall performance of the ship, but relatively fast and open for having published the images of the ceremony barely two hours later.

    What can be drawn from the official communiqué published by the Chinese Army Journal at first, is two sentences that summarize very well what represents this biggest destroyer ever built in China for the development of the Chinese navy .

    The first sentence is " Fully designed in China " (完全 自主 研制 研制), which implies that all of the ship's key components, including propulsion, which is still a weak point of Chinese industry today, is Designed and built in China.

    This " crusade " to technological independence is not recent, however, and at least since the founding of Communist China, that is to say, nearly 70 years ago. But there are few projects that receive this mention in the institutional communication, and that of the Type 055 is now part of it.

    " A symbolic warship in the strategic transformation of the Chinese navy " (实现 战略 转型 发展 发展 标志 战舰 战舰) is the second qualitative sentence used by Chinese state media and it has attracted our attention. Indeed, this is the first time that the word "symbolic" is used by the Chinese army to qualify a class of warship.

    But in what way is the 055 type so " symbolic " for the Chinese navy, while physically, it is only another great destroyer like the others, with a stealthy shape, some face-up radars and a A hundred silos at the vertical launch, if one wants to remain voluntarily reductive?

    According to a former retired technical officer of the Chinese Navy, this project launched on 20 December 2009 is the first in the industry to apply a new top-down design process.

    Unlike the former vertical design framework - that is, each business unit independently carries out its development part and the general integration takes place only at the end, Interface is emerging unfortunately also very late - the Chinese navy and the industrialists have agreed on a new way of carrying out the projects, where integration is placed at the heart of the concerns from the beginning of the project, and the precise specifications have descended until At the level of each individual equipment.

    The aim is to break down the "partitions" between all the stakeholders, reduce the number of subsystems, eliminate over-redundancies linked to the compartmentalization of organizations, and thus increase the volume utilization ... etc.

    The gain in this new design process is immediate - the removal of the Type 055 is strictly controlled from more than 20,000 tonnes initially proposed by manufacturers to only 12,000 tonnes at project launch.

    The unit cost per ship, including tests and armaments, is reduced by one third to 6 billion yuan (775 million euros), compared with 9 billion euros (1.16 billion euros) previously.

    And since design goes hand in hand with production, significant upstream changes inevitably involve downstream modifications. Thus, the construction of the Type 055 also goes into "large pre-equipped" mode - the ship is separated into three large blocks of less than 8,000 tons, and the modules that make up these blocks are already pre-equipped (installed, , Plugged in ...) at the maximum, which considerably reduces post-launching arming time.

    Here are some photos taken by spotters in Shanghai that show us the different stages of construction of the first Type 055:

    April 2016, the central section takes shape


    A new level on the integration of heterogeneous sensors
    The other invisible part of the progress made by the new Type 055 lies in its level of data management and integration (集成 集成).

    According to the same source close to the Chinese navy, the electromagnetic frequency management of the ship is highly integrated, "a level much higher than Type 052D".

    The Type 055 integrated mast

    The number of new sensors, which now support a wider spectrum of frequencies, is significantly reduced and most of the functions are provided by software and not by hardware, making future upgrades easier and cheaper.

    There is also an integrated main mast with several openings for radars and sensors, in addition to the new Type 346A (?) S-band planar radar .

    The ship would also be fitted with meter warning radars, replacing the former Type 517B , and dedicated X-band firewall .

    The main combat systems of the Type 055, for their part, have been completely redesigned. Ship command and fire control are now integrated, and standardization of the equipment is practically possible at all levels, ranging from trans-armed databases up to the smallest chiller, computers, simulators and Systems for example.

    Sources indicate that systems can integrate all sorts of data from other platforms, such as satellites, planes, ships, submarines and ground units. And, equipped with a fleet command system, Type 055 would be able to directly use the armaments of other vessels under its command.

    This picture show clearly 8X8 cells
    The level of automation is also another goal of the designers of Type 055, but there is as yet no metric data to qualify it correctly at this stage.

    However, the images broadcast by the Chinese navy seem to suggest that the Type 055 crew is composed of about 380 officers and sailors, 100 more than a Type 052D (+ 35.7%), while its movement Has more than doubled (+ 100%), which allows us to have a first idea on the issue.

    Type 055, anti-missile?
    Armament level, the wet dream of the Chinese enthusiasts has often associated the Type 055 with all possible weapons imaginable, like the railgun, the laser, the anti-ballistic missile ... etc.

    And the official communiqué seems at least to confirm the presence of the latter, indicating that the ship is equipped with new anti-aircraft, anti-missile, anti-ship and anti-submarine capability (防空 防空, 反导, , 反潜 武器).

    Now, does the anti-missile mentioned here correspond to the anti-ballistic missile, as evidenced by some American destroyers Arleigh Burke with their Aegis combat system upgraded to Baseline 9?

    In reality the anti-missile quoted by the institutional text speaks only of the anti-missile of the cruise type, like anti-ship missiles for example. And the reason is relatively simple, China does not (yet) need this kind of capacity even though some developments are underway .

    The fact that China does not have military bases overseas and territories outside the continent to protect makes the naval intercept of ballistic missiles totally useless, the geographical location of the country implies.

    For the main short-range and medium-range ballistic missile threats that the country faces - notably from India and North Korea - ground-based means are much more effective and successful today.

    The current array of Type 055 armaments has therefore remained fairly "classic", as can be seen in part in the television report here - apart from the 130 mm H / PJ-38 main gun capable of firing several types of " Including the guided ones, the CIWS with a H-PJ-11 gun at a rate of 10,000 rd / min, the CIWS HQ-10 missile , lure-throwers and torpedo launchers, all other offensive and defensive missiles Are practically found in the 112 silos of the universal VLS.

    These silos are distributed in two places - 64 in the front and 48 in the rear, just in front of the ship's double shed. They are of the same model as those used on Type 052D, compatible with hot and cold launch thanks to the Concentric Canister Launcher (CCL) concept .

    Theoretically, all Chinese missiles whose size does not exceed 9 meters in length and 0.85 meters in diameter can and can be launched, provided that the combat system is compatible therewith.

    Part of the armaments of the first Type 055

    To date, the Chinese navy plans to equip their first Type 055 with HQ-9B anti-aircraft missiles with a range of 200 km, anti-ship missiles YJ-18A , a new type of anti-aircraft missile And YJ-18 family Sea-Sol cruising missiles , ie, practically the same as those already found on Type 052D destroyers.

    It is also likely that the new anti-submarine missile Yu-8A is among the ship's arsenal.

    The overall presence and escort of the carrier groups
    One can of course be surprised by the "poverty" in terms of variety and especially in the number of weapons for a ship that is approximately 180 meters long and 20 meters long at the master-bau, while the South Korean destroyer Sejong the Great by Example is equipped with 128 silos for 11,000 tons of full load travel.

    But in reality there has never been any question of building bigger and more load for the Chinese, quite the contrary - otherwise we would already be facing a "destroyer" of more than 20,000 tons and not 12,000 tons In normal motion as today. Instead, the Chinese navy is concerned with how to better serve and exploit the existing to meet the specific needs that have been expressed.

    The development of Type 055 is probably the result of this "just-right" philosophy and is part of the long-term expansion strategy of the Chinese Navy, which aims to protect the interests of China all over the globe where there is one, and not limited only to the interior of the two islands chains in the Pacific Ocean, with modular, standardized and scalable platforms.

    The size closer to a ship's cruiser is thus more due to the need to have, first and foremost, a ship with sufficient autonomy for the global non-stop presence - remember that China has not yet Of naval bases operational other than on its coasts - and two a good scalability of the platform.

    With the Type 055, the Chinese navy comes to place the last part of its diagram of the first line fighting ships, now restricted to only 4 major categories - 1,000, 4,000, 6,000 and 12,000 tons - a scheme that is also Respected by the development of all new programs - Type 056 (1 000 tonnes), Type 054A andType 054B (4 000 tonnes), and Type 052D (6 000 tonnes).

    It should be noted that although NATO has already classified Type 055 in the category of cruiser (CG), but the positioning of the vessel defined by the Chinese Navy is clear and unambiguous, A destroyer, and that is how it should be considered.

    In addition to protecting the country's interests against all malicious acts, the other main role of the Type 055 is to escort carrier air groups that are used to project force, now limited to one around the aircraft carrier 16 Liaoning , But will soon be expanded by the arrival of a new STOBAR and also a conventional CATOBAR in the next 10 years.

    Due to its relatively high cost - 6 times that of LPD Type 071 of 20,000 tonnes - and also compared to its current missions, the number of Type 055 should not exceed that of Type 052D, commissioned to 26 copies (?) today.

    Apart from the first Type 055 which was launched this morning, there is another building under construction in Shanghai and two others in Dalian. All four should be delivered to the Chinese Navy before the end of the 13th Five-Year Plan (2016-2020).


    Knowing that according to the standards of the Chinese Navy, all equipment chosen in a new ship project must be available, so finished to be developed, at the time of the launch of it, what we see today On the first four Type 055 should therefore represent the level of maturity achieved at least three years ago.

    It is therefore more than likely that the Type 055 platform will continue to evolve, perhaps starting with on-board propulsion and energy management, which remain a classic COGAG with 4 gas turbines and no integrated electrical management system At least not totally ...).
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