Chechnyan Bride Stealing

#3
Only saw the last 10 minutes, but what I did see was like a real life version of Borat. Will check the whole thing out later, cheers for the link.
 
#4
It was interesting. It's based around the Chechan culture to 'steal' brides for marrying, although the word steal is a bit mis-leading. There are negotiations betwen the 'brides' family and the Grooms for whether she will accept the marriage proposal (being stuffed into a car forcibly) but she has no say and it's all down to the family elders. To refuse can bring shame on the family, so once you're grabbed and unless you have a resiliant family, it's a done deal. They estimate around 40% of Chechan marriages are done this way.

The program also makes a big issue about the suppressed Chechan culture (post the 2 wars for independance) and the role of Islam in a secular country (sic) such as Russia.

Overall an interesting watch, but a wail-fest for civil libery types and anti-Islamists.
 
#5
Do they steal each other Donkeys as well........ Donkeys can be a nice substitute for a Bride on a cold winters night...... Tribal society.... its not surprising. Maybe the Old Soviet communists tried to stop these quaint customs as well, but failed.....
 
R

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#6
Fascinating well made programme, the British reporter, who spoke fluent Russian, Lucy Ash was very brave to go there and ask the questions she asked and get away with it. Why anyone seriously wants an islamic state is beyond me, it must be like living in the middle ages only without the law and order!
 
#7
It's probably "news" for the West...

A month or two ago Putin had a meeting with Evkurov (Ingush president) to discuss a size of "kalym" (payment for a bride) and "blood money" in connection with inflation... :)

This is their culture.
 
#8
Property in Marxist Chechnya is theft according to the principles laid out in Das Kapital. In moslem countries women are property. Chechnya is the heaven of the tire burning pikey.

But who in his right mind would steal one of these.....
 
#9
Are they at the bingo or something? The one with her head covered in a badgers arse looks as though she's just missed the last number.
 
#10
Some of the younger grils looked after theirselves and was quite fit (in a russian sort of way)... put it this way, I would've!

Bride Stealing is not just a Chechen thing, it's that general area of the world and reaches into China.

It's a bit like arranged marriages: often, the couple are practically strangers on their wedding night but 'love', and happiness, comes in time. Compare with here (the West) where the woman goes into marriage 'in love', I can't help but think would most women grow to love the man who wanted her? That it makes no great difference on the man, that it is his wanting her that she responds to?

There are continents that arrange their marriages like this so there musst be ssomething to this... there can't be millions of unhappy wives out there in the east.
 
#11
Stealing in the dark is always a bit risky???
 
#12
Zulikan's grandfather's justification for arranged/forced marriage was interesting: 'if we don't obey these laws (Islam), we lose our identity (Chechen)'.

Islam is perceived as a source of dignity after their treatment at the hands of secular Moscow.
 
#13
It's probably "news" for the West...

A month or two ago Putin had a meeting with Evkurov (Ingush president) to discuss a size of "kalym" (payment for a bride) and "blood money" in connection with inflation... :)

This is their culture.
As one of the grandfathers was saying in the programme, the practise is making a come back because after the recent re-occupation they want to make a point about being Chechen and not Russian as ostentatiously and in as many ways as possible. "If I start carrying on like a Russian, I will cease to be a Chechen".
 
#14
Some of the younger grils looked after theirselves and was quite fit (in a russian sort of way)... put it this way, I would've!

Bride Stealing is not just a Chechen thing, it's that general area of the world and reaches into China.

It's a bit like arranged marriages: often, the couple are practically strangers on their wedding night but 'love', and happiness, comes in time. Compare with here (the West) where the woman goes into marriage 'in love', I can't help but think would most women grow to love the man who wanted her? That it makes no great difference on the man, that it is his wanting her that she responds to?

There are continents that arrange their marriages like this so there musst be ssomething to this... there can't be millions of unhappy wives out there in the east.
I have a number of friends who are quite happy in their arranged marriages and were perfectly happy for them to go ahead ("no reason not to, really") but that is a different kettle of fish to forced abduction. If it's pre-arranged and the girl goes along with it then fine, it's not really abduction, more of an elopement.

But take for example that girl Zulikan : while she was ready to resign her self to the course of events, she clearly didn't want to be there and the only people who 'arranged' anything in that marriage were the grooms family, who she barely knows. Even her own family were clearly contemplating violence - "in the old days people would have been killed for this, I certainly remember it from my days, but we're not doing that today for the sake of Allah and the Imam".

I can guarantee that if this happened further east than the Caucasus and the girl did not elope 100% willingly there would be blood.
 
#16
Chechnya was never deprived of its Islam (and Chechens have their own understanding of it). Interesting that in 1920-s bolsheviks not only gave Chechens the lands of Terek cosaks, but allowed Sharia law there.
The Bolsheviks knew that at that time it would be be better to hand over responsibility to the Chechens who were largely self-governing with their own sets of laws and enforcement mechanisms, allowing themselves to concentrate on consolidating Russia. The Chechens would have been far more effort than it was worth to subsume into Soviet Russia, unlike the Terek Cossacks.

It would suffice to claim the borders and be safe in the knowledge that the Chechens would be too coherent for any other power to make inroads into, much less themselves.
 
#17
The Bolsheviks knew that at that time it would be be better to hand over responsibility to the Chechens who were largely self-governing with their own sets of laws and enforcement mechanisms, allowing themselves to concentrate on consolidating Russia. The Chechens would have been far more effort than it was worth to subsume into Soviet Russia, unlike the Terek Cossacks.
It was more like Terek cosacs were decidedly anti-bolshevic, and bolshevics were seeking alies among the enemies of their enemies.

Of course, Sharia law did not last, but even so Chechens always lived according to their own traditions and believes. Stealing brides was common in Soviet times, Chechen girls at the University I went to were proud that they (unlike us, "russians") didn't have to go through heartaches and disapointments of trying to find a husband, -- their families would do it for them; and "stealing" bit was just a traditional ritual.
 
#18
It was more like Terek cosacs were decidedly anti-bolshevic, and bolshevics were seeking alies among the enemies of their enemies.
конечно! How could any self-respecting Terek Cossack align himself with the godless Bolsheviks? The Chechens are still too tough a nut to crack. Better to co-opt them against a nominated enemy then (Terek Cossacks) as now (Insurgents).

Of course, Sharia law did not last, but even so Chechens always lived according to their own traditions and believes. Stealing brides was common in Soviet times, Chechen girls at the University I went to were proud that they (unlike us, "russians") didn't have to go through heartaches and disapointments of trying to find a husband, -- their families would do it for them; and "stealing" bit was just a traditional ritual.
There's "stealing" and there's stealing. In past times the side doing the stealing (without pre-arrangement) would have some very angry and well-armed brothers, uncles and cousins to deal with.

Would you agree that under Kadyrov wider Chechen society has been neutered, leaving power largely in the hands of his regime and others who push the envelope of the law (societal or otherwise)?
 
#19
There's "stealing" and there's stealing. In past times the side doing the stealing (without pre-arrangement) would have some very angry and well-armed brothers, uncles and cousins to deal with.




Would you agree that under Kadyrov wider Chechen society has been neutered, leaving power largely in the hands of his regime and others who push the envelope of the law (societal or otherwise)?
True. :)


Kadyrov clan belongs to a "lowly" tape. They allied themselves with federal forces during the second Chechen war only because they prefered Russians (the devil they knew) to Arabs. The place Kadyrov was given after the war pissed off other more prominent tapes. Now Russia needs him for his loyalty, and his loyalty is based on understanding that without Kremlin support his clan will be destroyed by those who keep a grudge against him. But the problem is: Kadyrov started flying a bit too high making attempts to dictate to Kremlin and protecting Chechen criminals within Russia proper (to demonstrate to Chechen society that he is not a puppet after all) which lately led to a few major public disturbances and damaged Putin/Medvedev reputation with a wider Russian society. If Kremlin will not muzzle Kadyrov, Russia is risking riots; but it doesn't look like Kremlin has anyone to replace Kadyrov with without risking another Chechen blowup...
 
#20
PBS explored the same phenomenon in Kyrgyzstan and I seem to remember CH4 doing a similar programme a few years back on Kazakhstan, although I can't find a link.

It was certainly prevalent in Central Asia before the Russians took over. Don't know what happened in the Imperial/Soviet Union period but I'd guess the fact that it's still firmly in the folk memory shows it didn't die out...
 

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