Cheap Ammunition Put Lives at Risk

#2
Saving money on procurement is one thing, but if the product bought is not fit for roll what saving is there? None.

Put the procurement manager's on the front line with 'duff' kit and see if they are then happy with 'cheap'!
 
#3
An MoD spokesman said: "There are no current problems with this ammunition.".
looking at that video there sure was 'ploblems'
 
#4
Can we have a link to the video?
 
#6
If any cnuts from the MoD are reading this, I hope that on your way home tonight you are run over by a bus.

This is a clear case of the MoD buying shite ammo. It happened to me back in '93 (caused a couple of breach explosions) and the MoD claimed it was poor weapon handling skills that caused it and not a crap batch of 5.56. It was b0llocks then and is b0llocks now.

Do the idiots that inhabit the MoD not realise that when the party faithful spokesman trots out the official line "There are no current problems with this ammunition", this little piece of sophistry (using clever language to make a legally true statement that 99% of normal people would view as a lie) just costs them any credibility they have left?
 
#9
Taken from the Telegraph article:
The Paras obtained ammunition from the Canadians and Americans and it was only when British special forces became involved that the situation was resolved.
WHY? Is the Paras word not good enough?
 

diplomat

War Hero
Book Reviewer
#10
It may get worse, as various Western Goverments are trawling the old stockpiles of ammunition in the Balkans and Eastern Europe to send to the new security frces of Afghanistan and Iraq. I am not sure I would want to trust my life to that ammunition!

Make sure you don't get sent any by mistake!!!
 
#11
Cyprus 1958, Cpl LW put 4 rounds into the back of a fleeing gunman at a range of 30 yards using a .38 S&W pistol. Knocked the bugger down but on examination it was seen that not one single round had penetrated his coat. Ammo came out of a box printed "For RN use only- April 1941".
 
#12
Pirimaiboy said:
Cyprus 1958, Cpl LW put 4 rounds into the back of a fleeing gunman at a range of 30 yards using a .38 S&W pistol. Knocked the bugger down but on examination it was seen that not one single round had penetrated his coat. Ammo came out of a box printed "For RN use only- April 1941".
Sounds about right for .38 IIZ... always was a crappy round!

A heavy greatcoat as worn in the 50s is a fair approximation of a flak jacket, so I'm not surprised the bullets did not penetrate, particularly if the coat was wet and loose! Knocked him over though.... :D

Ammo was only 17 years old and went bang did'nt it. Woja moaning about..? Don't see the relevence of the RN bit..

That said, it looks like there is an issue with the Paras that needs sorting.... however don't always blame the ammo. The M2 is usually pretty indifferent to what you feed it provided you get the headspace right and balance the gun. 50 cal ammo is probably made by more manufacturers than any other caliber, but the quality is highly variable...

Kynock used to make the .50 for UK use, but they are no longer in existence, so everthing is bought on the spot market!

Edited to add - The Telegraph is talking bollix about Dushka 12.7 ammo. Yes, it's about the same diameter, but the case is completely different. You can't feed Dushka ammo through an M2. (just like you can't feed 7.62x 39 AK ammo through an SLR!)
 
#14
HE117 said:
The M2 is usually pretty indifferent to what you feed it provided you get the headspace right and balance the gun. 50 cal ammo is probably made by more manufacturers than any other caliber, but the quality is highly variable
the brit army .50s are in 'improvment' over the M2 by having fixed headspace,
on the M2 i was forever removing seperated cases stuck in chambers because idiots couldnt use the headspace gauges,
 
#15
In the early eighties there was a problem with ammunition bought from India. The regiment which trained me in Catterick had an incident where a bloke had several stoppages in a row where the round didn't clear the barrel, they cut the SMG in half and displayed it
 
#16
Indian manufactured 9mm and 7.62mm 'Curry Powder' dates back to the mid 70's Some was even shipped to the Falklands, but never used. It used Ball Powder instead of Nitrocellulose Grains as in British made Small Arms, was filled underweight. It was eventually sold back to India.
 
#17
Dread said:
If any cnuts from the MoD are reading this, I hope that on your way home tonight you are run over by a bus.

This is a clear case of the MoD buying shite ammo. It happened to me back in '93 (caused a couple of breach explosions) and the MoD claimed it was poor weapon handling skills that caused it and not a crap batch of 5.56. It was b0llocks then and is b0llocks now.

Do the idiots that inhabit the MoD not realise that when the party faithful spokesman trots out the official line "There are no current problems with this ammunition", this little piece of sophistry (using clever language to make a legally true statement that 99% of normal people would view as a lie) just costs them any credibility they have left?
Well said Dread. Similar to the "minor shortages of ECBA" line trotted out. It may pacify government ministers, but the pattern of mistruths continues. "The army can have anything that it needs to carry out it's mission is Afghanistan" - Ammunition that works, would be a fu*king good start.

As usual, the government walks all over the armed forces, spins a line and moves on to the next crisis that needs a gloss over. If ever an enquiry into the planning for Iraq and Afghanistan is carried out - the CoC should push to have all of these issues, which all seem to be procurement based right to the top of the agenda.

Finally, fair fu*king play to the soldier on the gun, professional, gets on with it. Well done mate, absolute respect to you for that, many would have thrown the towel in.
 
#18
There has been a problem with small arms ammo for some time: simply not enough of it no matter what spin both the US DOD and MoD tried to say.

Problem really starts in the US where they got wrong footed thanks to the huge increase in demand for all calibres, live and blank, especially for training as that always gets second priority to active service requirements. Only had one old-ish plant and had to buy it in from Canada and elsewhere. Cue global shortage until capacity ramps up, which is not a quick process.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/mt/mt-search.cgi?IncludeBlogs=2&search=ammunition+shortage

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/security/has176250.000/has176250_0.HTM

Couple that with the "just in time" mania in the UK and easy to see how duff 12.7mm that would never otherwise be considered gets hoovered up and issued.
 
#19
diplomat said:
It may get worse, as various Western Goverments are trawling the old stockpiles of ammunition in the Balkans and Eastern Europe to send to the new security frces of Afghanistan and Iraq. I am not sure I would want to trust my life to that ammunition!

Make sure you don't get sent any by mistake!!!
 
#20
DrStealth said:
HE117 said:
The M2 is usually pretty indifferent to what you feed it provided you get the headspace right and balance the gun. 50 cal ammo is probably made by more manufacturers than any other caliber, but the quality is highly variable
the brit army .50s are in 'improvment' over the M2 by having fixed headspace,
on the M2 i was forever removing seperated cases stuck in chambers because idiots couldnt use the headspace gauges,
Headspace and Timing!!
 
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