Chavezs latest step towards a socialist state

#1
Chavez is in the process of nationalizing supermarkets,he said it would be wrong for anyone to raise prices when he devalued the Venzuelan dollar and now he's gone ahead and raised prices in his grocery stores by 35%. :?

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_12/b4171046603604.htm

At least his support is plummeting and Venezuela can get rid of this clown next election,hopefully.
 
#2
Chavez is destroying his wealth earning private sector on the altar of socialism, Venezula won't last until 2012. They already have basic food shortages and irregular power whilst the life of an official is comfortable. He has created the typical socialist state, everyone equally poor except of course the party officials and their hangers on.
 
#3
I'm not a fan of military coups because you never know if they'll turn power back to a civillian government or hang on to power,but if there are Generals in Venezeula planning a coup the sooner the better.
 
#5
littlejim said:
Damned socialists!

They should work for a society where the money goes to the people who really need it -- like Paris Hilton.
I forget what countries are and have been successful with socialism?
China and Russia have had to figure out the hard way that a socialist economy doesn't work,I hope Veneuzela doesn't have to either,although they're already halfway there.
 
#7
I find watching the economic destruction happening in venezula fascinating.

You get to watch old shcool socialism kill a economy in realtime instead of just reading about it in a history book.

You can see first hand why socialist economies had empty stores because when prices increased they didnt allow stores to increase prices on existing goods. The end result is that when stores go to repurchase inventory it will be at new higher prices and they wont have enough money to replace all the inventory sold so stores will start to become empty of merchendise.

Im also amazed civil war hasnt already kicked off there when you have chavez importing 30 thousand cubans to run the goverement I think any sane person would describe that as treason.
 
#8
I'll give Chavez and the Boliviarian Revolution every chance it deserves because i have seen the alternative on the pavements of places like the Philippines & Columbia - children living in abject poverty and the only 2 countries where i have witnessed adults prostituting pre-adolencent children to USA tourists.

I have not visited Cuba but there is a sign in Havana that says something to the effect of:

Tonight 100 million children around the world will sleep on the street, not have enough food or any access to education or health care. Not one of them is in Cuba.
 
#9
Yes Tubbs, and it's all the Jews fault isn't it? (thought I'd get it in first, you'll get round to saying it eventually)
 
#10
tubbs1970 said:
I'll give Chavez and the Boliviarian Revolution every chance it deserves because i have seen the alternative on the pavements of places like the Philippines & Columbia - children living in abject poverty and the only 2 countries where i have witnessed adults prostituting pre-adolencent children to USA tourists.

I have not visited Cuba but there is a sign in Havana that says something to the effect of:

Tonight 100 million children around the world will sleep on the street, not have enough food or any access to education or health care. Not one of them is in Cuba.
Unfortunately, I think you have fallen hook line and sinker for the oldest trick in the socialist book. The right deals with the world how it is. The left deals with the world how they want it to be. Just like New Labour, Socialist all over the world think they can just make statements and proclamations and those good intentions are all that is needed.

Just because there is a sign in Havana written by a bureaucrat that proclaims all is well with the Chillldreeen does not make it so all by itself. Indeed that’s probably why Cuba is now in the top 10 on the UN’s watch list as a destination for pedoes.

Its the same logic that prompted our government to introduce a law saying that government had to reduce the deficit, rather than, you know, actually reducing the deficit themselves.

Issue all the grand sounding proclamations and harbour all the good intentions you want. At the end of the day the proof of the history of the 20th century is in, it shows emphatically that Socialism oppresses people so it can make them less free, less wealthy, less happy and very often kill them to keep them so.
 
#11
Siddar said:
I find watching the economic destruction happening in venezula fascinating.

You get to watch old shcool socialism kill a economy in realtime instead of just reading about it in a history book.

You can see first hand why socialist economies had empty stores because when prices increased they didnt allow stores to increase prices on existing goods. The end result is that when stores go to repurchase inventory it will be at new higher prices and they wont have enough money to replace all the inventory sold so stores will start to become empty of merchendise.

Im also amazed civil war hasnt already kicked off there when you have chavez importing 30 thousand cubans to run the goverement I think any sane person would describe that as treason.
We went on holiday to Margeritta island last year which is in fact a state of Venezula and its a fact the govenor of Margeritta cant stand chevez and his policies. The place is a total rip off but you can buy a chevez doll at the airport and use it as a voodoo doll i suppose :D they got it right its proper ugly and would hold Barbi to ransom if it could.

They are all on the rob even the airport staff, we have spoken to other people who have got home after holidays there and your suitcases have been robbed, because as you go through customs its searched by the military to see what you've got and then robbed before it gets to the plane hold. If even the military are reduced to this then maybe they might get the coup they want.
 
#12
And he has just purchased (another) 5 Billion quid worth of military kit off the Russian's.....
 
#13
petergriffen said:
And he has just purchased (another) 5 Billion quid worth of military kit off the Russian's.....
That's the point, he is bigging it up struting around being a military leader. He wants to be a big player and loves the toys, but has to pay for them somehow, so the wealth of the country doesn't get to the people. He has created a lot of unecessary tension with Colombia with whom he has almost come to blows a couple of times recently. Why? because he wants to be a tinpot general.
Problem is he loves power so much I can't see him giving it up easily, the socialism thing is a pretext for a right-wing government. I wouldn't be surprised at underhand work to maintain his position and democracy taking a back seat.

At a Conference of Spanish speaking countries not so long back Chavez was interrupting everything with his long-winded, self-centred dribblings and managed to provoke Spanish King Juan Carlos, normally the most diplomatic calm character, into exploding "What don't you shut up?" (¿porque no te callas?) before walking out in disgust.

He would be comical if he wasn't dangerous, kids like to play with their toys right?
 
#14
Dwarf said:
the socialism thing is a pretext for a right-wing government.
What do you think it is to be 'right wing'?

For me the left is about more control going to the state. The right is about less control going to the state.

I appreciate the liberal elite likes to re-brand certain Socialist governments that have proved their evil beyond deniability as suddenly ‘right wing’. Everyone knew that Hilter was a national socialist until he was rebranded ‘right wing’ to pass the taint to the liberal elites enemies. I could names half a dozen other Socialist dictators who have been rebranded ‘right wing’ to spare the left from having to deal with the shortcomings of socialisms. Given that in Hilters case the educational establishment and the BBC have been so very happy to play their part means that today even otherwise sensible people have been brainwashed into believing not just that National Socialism has never had anything to do with Socialism, but that the two are polar opposites.
 
#15
Kingbingo

I see what you mean, and I think that you are right. But what Chavez is doing is using socialism as a means to get power, then by concentrating the wealth of the country in his pet projects and maintaining his power through a coterie or small group he is effectively removing the wealth from the people and concentrating it in a few hands. The people don't have the money flowing down to buy better houses and amenities but see it spent on new Migs and warships. Also if they then become disenfranchised which is possible, Chavez has already gone over the limits of a presidential term by manipulating the laws, then they will be alienated from both wealth and power. Hardly socialism, which is how I would see it.
 
#16
Chavez is an odd duck who's rise to power was quite bizarre and unfortunate. Hugo's background reads like a cheap and cheesy satire of a thriller novel. Rather than simply stripping him of his commision when he was found to be a pro revolutionary fruit loop, the Venezualian military put him in a position they thought he couldn't cause trouble in... as the head of cadets at their military acadamy. Huge mistake... he managed to influence a sizable percentage of the incoming officer corps. When he staged his coup attempt they were so inept that he had his guys steal AMX-13 light tanks which they had no clue how to use! Couldn't even get most the things started to drive them out of the motor pool and the few that they did get moving got lost. His only brilliant move was talking the government into letting him make a radio address to the public as a condition of ending the stand off.

Anyway... he's gonna be out on his ear after the next elections and I won't be surprised if he makes some idiotic attempt to retain power.
 
#17
Dwarf said:
But what Chavez is doing is using socialism as a means to get power, then by concentrating the wealth of the country in his pet projects and maintaining his power through a coterie or small group he is effectively removing the wealth from the people and concentrating it in a few hands. The people don't have the money flowing down to buy better houses and amenities but see it spent on new Migs and warships. Also if they then become disenfranchised which is possible, Chavez has already gone over the limits of a presidential term by manipulating the laws, then they will be alienated from both wealth and power.

Hardly socialism, which is how I would see it.
Funny you should say that because that's almost exactly what I would say Socialism is. Not what they claim of course, but the truth of Socialism.

Indeed, I would go further, Socialists have not been led astray by bad ideas. Rather, they are bad people who choose ideologies to justify their behaviour.

In this country these people began as state socialists. When this became electorally embarrassing, they switched to politically correct multiculturalism. Now this too is becoming an embarrassment, they are moving towards totalitarian environmentalism.

It is reasonable to assume that, with these people, ideas are nothing more than a series of justifications for building a social and economic and political order within which they and theirs can have great wealth and unchallengeable power.
 
#18
Kingbingo said:
Dwarf said:
But what Chavez is doing is using socialism as a means to get power, then by concentrating the wealth of the country in his pet projects and maintaining his power through a coterie or small group he is effectively removing the wealth from the people and concentrating it in a few hands. The people don't have the money flowing down to buy better houses and amenities but see it spent on new Migs and warships. Also if they then become disenfranchised which is possible, Chavez has already gone over the limits of a presidential term by manipulating the laws, then they will be alienated from both wealth and power.

Hardly socialism, which is how I would see it.
Funny you should say that because that's almost exactly what I would say Socialism is. Not what they claim of course, but the truth of Socialism.

Indeed, I would go further, Socialists have not been led astray by bad ideas. Rather, they are bad people who choose ideologies to justify their behaviour.

In this country these people began as state socialists. When this became electorally embarrassing, they switched to politically correct multiculturalism. Now this too is becoming an embarrassment, they are moving towards totalitarian environmentalism.

It is reasonable to assume that, with these people, ideas are nothing more than a series of justifications for building a social and economic and political order within which they and theirs can have great wealth and unchallengeable power.
What Chavez is doing has very little to do with Socialism. He's going all out to create a personal cult around himself, without regard for the folks he's supposed to be helping. They just fulfill an alibi function.

It's a shame really, but with all his country's wealth and corresponding independence, he could've laid the foundation for a genuine Socialist society that could've served as an example to other nations. Instead, he's doing exactly the same as Mugabe in Zimbabwe. As if all those failed states behind the Iron Curtain weren't enough of a warning that Socialism just won't work if it's imposed from above - in whatever guise.

MsG
 
#19
Kingbingo said:
Dwarf said:
the socialism thing is a pretext for a right-wing government.
What do you think it is to be 'right wing'?

For me the left is about more control going to the state. The right is about less control going to the state.

I appreciate the liberal elite likes to re-brand certain Socialist governments that have proved their evil beyond deniability as suddenly ‘right wing’. Everyone knew that Hilter was a national socialist until he was rebranded ‘right wing’ to pass the taint to the liberal elites enemies. I could names half a dozen other Socialist dictators who have been rebranded ‘right wing’ to spare the left from having to deal with the shortcomings of socialisms. Given that in Hilters case the educational establishment and the BBC have been so very happy to play their part means that today even otherwise sensible people have been brainwashed into believing not just that National Socialism has never had anything to do with Socialism, but that the two are polar opposites.
Erm, no. You are confusing totalitarianism and libertarianism with socialism and fascism. They lie on different axes. For example, would you have called Hitler / Mussolini / Franco socialists? And yet...
 
#20
Bugsy said:
What Chavez is doing has very little to do with Socialism. He's going all out to create a personal cult around himself, without regard for the folks he's supposed to be helping. They just fulfill an alibi function.
MsG
Guess what Bugsy?

There is no alternative form of Socialism, people need leadership, and they will not provide it themselves.

Since absolute power corrupts absolutely, the people at the top will live comfortably, and everyone else will be "equal" in near poverty.

Wait and see what party gets elected.... it wouldnt be an evil capitalist pigdog one would it?
 

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