Changing the army - how?

QRK2

LE
Point taken.

Problem is that in order to know what kit you need, you have to have some reasonably fixed idea about what kind of fights you need to be able to take part in.

Sadly, IMHO our lot don't have much of a track record when it comes to realistically imagining what's coming down the line as we fumble our way into our future.

Part of me is looking at Ranger Regiment roles and wondering why we're so ready to nail our colours to the mast of roles that (arguably) represent a response to the last fight we were in, but not necessarily the next - least of all if the next one involves Russia (a near-peer opponenent, by my approximation, anyway)

A triumph of hope over experience? The UK is nowhere near a peer of Russia wrt land warfare.
 
Because of an inability to think strategically.

FFS, there are plenty on here who show more strategic awareness than thickset with access to all the information apparently do.
Because of our inability to fund strategically? We can't afford to take the Russians on, even as a small actor supporting NATO, we don't have the numbers and our equipment can never make up for it.
 
A triumph of hope over experience? The UK is nowhere near a peer of Russia wrt land warfare.
I'm of the generation that expected to at least slow their Westward advance, back in the day, and - by my rough approximation earlier - given the way Vlad The Lad is leading his country, we'd be naive to rule out the possibility of getting caught up in a ruck of his making, hence "near-peer" ought to be nailed firmly into our capability programme.
 
There are other career streams in the wider military with similar levels of stress and required concentration, similar - or even higher - wash-out rates and similarly demanding physical qualifications necessary. Quite a lot of them don't need the Queen's Commission, either.

This isn't unique to these guys, of course, see here gifted generalist Army officers cuffing it like crazy when put in roles and positions for which they're laughably under- or unqualified, good RSMs tipped into the toxic swamps of a formation HQ as SO3 or SO2 Whatever, the examples are countless.

Why don't they get paid the same as aircrew, submariners or SF then?
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Because of our inability to fund strategically? We can't afford to take the Russians on, even as a small actor supporting NATO, we don't have the numbers and our equipment can never make up for it.
Hm. But we should expect (in fact, we have a NATO commitment) to be a part of the gang that sees the other gang off.

Someone tell me how Rangers slot into the NATO Orbat.
 
Hm. But we should expect (in fact, we have a NATO commitment) to be a part of the gang that sees the other gang off.

Someone tell me how Rangers slot into the NATO Orbat.
NATO targets are CONF, but I believe they do actually contribute.
 
Because the skill sets are uniquely military and don't command a premium in civvystrasse - but that's literally a stab in the dark off the top of my head.

Yup, an SF team leader, SSBN Watch Lead, or Rivet Joint navigator is eminently employable at PWC.............
 
Hm. But we should expect (in fact, we have a NATO commitment) to be a part of the gang that sees the other gang off.

Someone tell me how Rangers slot into the NATO Orbat.
That's part of my thinking, a post or two upthread

Or are we signalling a Brit departure not only from Europe, but also from the North Atlantic Alliance, just as things start to look . . . A Little Difficult?
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
That's part of my thinking, a post or two upthread

Or are we signalling a Brit departure not only from Europe, but also from the North Atlantic Alliance, just as things start to look . . . A Little Difficult?
I was going to respond by saying that I think that some people are trying to ignore the problem. That's not right; I think that they simply don't comprehend the problem.

Unfortunately, they're in the positions of influence.
 

Glad_its_all_over

ADC
Book Reviewer
Whether as a matter of policy, through negligence or ignorance, our ground forces are no longer in a position to take on a heavy metal opponent. In the hugely unlikely event that V.V. Putin decides to roll the dice, it's going to be up to the Poles to harass him while he gradually runs out of benz, beans and bullets on his way across Poland. Our NATO role is going to be naval and air almost exclusively, although our door kickers might get a look in; two Challenger 2 regiments aren't going to make much difference, even if we could actually scrape up an armoured brigade, getting it to the front before everything peters out might be a challenge as well.
 
Russia looks like it's about to reacquaint you with what a conventional battlefield looks like. There is absolutely a conventional battlefield;

I fear the thrust of my comment went straight over your head - I did not say that there was no such a thing as conventional battlefield.

I said that by focusing exclusively on a conventional battlefield - You were setting yourself up for failure.

If Russia invades Ukraine - It could potentially be a conventional battlefield. That is not to say that it will be a conventional battlefield.

Personally - In the event of a Russian invasion of Ukraine, I would see UN / NATO intervention very much along the lines of the UN / NATO intervention in the Balkans rather than an all out war.
 
Problem is that in order to know what kit you need, you have to have some reasonably fixed idea about what kind of fights you need to be able to take part in.

Which is part of the reason why I was against your Conventional battlefield theory. The UK does not have the kit, manpower and other resources to take part in a conventional battlefield, except in a very, very small and limited way.

Part of me is looking at Ranger Regiment roles and wondering why we're so ready to nail our colours to the mast of roles that (arguably) represent a response to the last fight we were in, but not necessarily the next - least of all if the next one involves Russia (a near-peer opponenent, by my approximation, anyway)

I think it might be fair to say that a large % of people are scratching their heads and wondering, not only the role of the Rangers but logic behind changing a name overnight.

Sorry - I cannot agree with you that Russia is a near peer of the UK
 
Whether as a matter of policy, through negligence or ignorance, our ground forces are no longer in a position to take on a heavy metal opponent. In the hugely unlikely event that V.V. Putin decides to roll the dice, it's going to be up to the Poles to harass him while he gradually runs out of benz, beans and bullets on his way across Poland. Our NATO role is going to be naval and air almost exclusively, although our door kickers might get a look in; two Challenger 2 regiments aren't going to make much difference, even if we could actually scrape up an armoured brigade, getting it to the front before everything peters out might be a challenge as well.
Yet not too long ago we had a complete Armoured Division based in Germany. Still, I supose 'call me Dave' knew best.
 

Caecilius

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
conventional battlefield. That is not to say that it will be a conventional battlefield

Hard to envisage any kind of invasion that doesn't look like a conventional battlefield. The Ukrainian army may not last very long, but it'll be a conventional fight between them and the Russians so long as it does.


Personally - In the event of a Russian invasion of Ukraine, I would see UN / NATO intervention very much along the lines of the UN / NATO intervention in the Balkans rather than an all out war

I'd be amazed if there's any physical UN/NATO response at all, at least in the short term; it'll all be economic. There's simply too much Russian kit there and the US doesn't have the political will to initiate a war with Russia over Ukraine.
 
Hard to envisage any kind of invasion that doesn't look like a conventional battlefield.

Is it really ?

Let's play devils advocate and imagine that the very recent cyber attacks on Ukraine were conducted by the Russians. A precursor to cyber switching off the whole of Ukraine infrastructure and other capabilities. Sitting back for a few weeks and then moving in without a shot being fired.

Impossible - Right.

Why is it impossible - Conventional war or something.

Oh wait - You answered that already

I'd be amazed if there's any physical UN/NATO response at all, at least in the short term; it'll all be economic. There's simply too much Russian kit there and the US doesn't have the political will to initiate a war with Russia over Ukraine.

Political will & Public attitudes along with a host of relatively lily-livered International Organisations says that the likelihood of a Conventional war is exceeding low.
 

Caecilius

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Why is it impossible - Conventional war or something.

Because there's a Ukrainian army who'll still be there even if Russia manages to somehow 'switch off the whole of Ukraine infrastructure' (which is vanishingly unlikely to be possible). Why would they suddenly not fight?

that the likelihood of a Conventional war is exceeding low

Not really. The conventional war will be between Ukraine and Russia. Assuming the Russians do invade, of course, which seems like it would be a miscalculation.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Whether as a matter of policy, through negligence or ignorance, our ground forces are no longer in a position to take on a heavy metal opponent. In the hugely unlikely event that V.V. Putin decides to roll the dice, it's going to be up to the Poles to harass him while he gradually runs out of benz, beans and bullets on his way across Poland. Our NATO role is going to be naval and air almost exclusively, although our door kickers might get a look in; two Challenger 2 regiments aren't going to make much difference, even if we could actually scrape up an armoured brigade, getting it to the front before everything peters out might be a challenge as well.
No. If everyone took the attitude our VSOs have, there’d be no tanks.

It’s the sum of the parts and we’re lacking.
 

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