Changing the army - how?

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
This is a new thread to stop us diverting the CR2 upgrade thread.

That has diverted into a discussion of how to effect change in the army - 'change' on all levels, from the day-to-day running through to major procurements.

Some have suggested a clean sheet and drafting in VSO talent from outside to create a new army model (as distinct from a New Model Army) for us. There is also the contention that the talent already within should not be being battered into an orthodoxy by VSOs.

Do we 'buy in', or not? What other possibilities are there?



Mods: This is posted here as it's the same forum as the CR2 thread. Please feel free to move as necessary.
 

JCC

LE
To start:-

"I suspect the root problem is the Army rather than just Ajax et al. The Army appears to be a failing organisation which no amount of rearranging the deckchairs is capable of fixing - especially by those responsible for the mess in the first place.

Probably the best thing to do is issue every man jack in the army, from the highest to the lowest, with a P45 and then bring in some retired VVSOs from overseas and pay them to design, equip & recruit two brand new Brigades, one Heavy one Light, from the ground up.

The people that broke it are not the people to fix it."
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
The Army cannot change from within, it simply can’t.
after every conflict of the last 100 years, it’s shown a peerless ability to unlearn lessons learned and return to ‘proper soldiering’.

I contend the fixation with tradition and public duties lies at the core of this institutional ’back to the future’ malaise.
 

JCC

LE
If the army is broke, which it seems to be, this is an ideal opportunity to replace it with something better; better for the members, better for the country.

To miss this opportunity, when expectations are so very low, seems to be a criminal act of negligence.
 
Stop recruiting officers seperately. The very idea that a bunch of semi retired colonels can spot leadership talent in some youth fresh out of college is a historic, foolish, throwback to aristocracy, old school tie and suchlike silliness about class equalling ability.
Recruit everyone as a private soldier, then select potential officers from the juniour NCOs.

Cut the Household Division, and it's influence over the rest of the army: amalgamate all the Guards, HCR, Kings Tp RHA, into 2 battalions of " Guards", one ceremonial ( if need be), the other operational. That's 2 LtCols, and maybe a Col i/c, no star officers at all.
Abolish GSMs, regional/ administrative HQs, and all similar non deployable units, along with the hordes of Staff involved.
Cull MoD head office, again with all the hangers on and paper pushers.
Equalise retirement for all ranks at 40 years of age, compulsorily, however good they claim to be.

Instead of insisting on troops still lugging the same weight of equipment as a Roman legionary, sort it out that troops carry, say, boddy armour, water, rations, ammo and ppe, but no more than that, the rest goes in the CQs wagon or hangs off their APC.

There's a few starters...
 
Do we 'buy in', or not? What other possibilities are there?

Let's start by having a clearly defined role for the Army.

1. Home Defence - How do we do it and what is needed to do it.

2. Overseas Territories - How do we do it and what is needed to do it.

3. NATO Commitment - What is needed and what do they need.

You now have a small, but rather nice round robin of postings / tasking.

Start with the basics and start working upwards and outwards.

Trying to be World Policemen in every sh1thole in the world does not do anyone any favours.
 

JCC

LE
Stop recruiting officers separately. The very idea that a bunch of semi retired colonels can spot leadership talent in some youth fresh out of college is a historic, foolish, throwback to aristocracy, old school tie and suchlike silliness about class equalling ability.
Recruit everyone as a private soldier, then select potential officers from the junior NCOs.

Absolutely - officer candidates in the Austro-Hungarian Army did a year in the ranks and dined in the officers mess.
 

TC20

Old-Salt
Stop recruiting officers seperately. The very idea that a bunch of semi retired colonels can spot leadership talent in some youth fresh out of college is a historic, foolish, throwback to aristocracy, old school tie and suchlike silliness about class equalling ability.
Recruit everyone as a private soldier, then select potential officers from the juniour NCOs.

Cut the Household Division, and it's influence over the rest of the army: amalgamate all the Guards, HCR, Kings Tp RHA, into 2 battalions of " Guards", one ceremonial ( if need be), the other operational. That's 2 LtCols, and maybe a Col i/c, no star officers at all.
Abolish GSMs, regional/ administrative HQs, and all similar non deployable units, along with the hordes of Staff involved.
Cull MoD head office, again with all the hangers on and paper pushers.
Equalise retirement for all ranks at 40 years of age, compulsorily, however good they claim to be.

Instead of insisting on troops still lugging the same weight of equipment as a Roman legionary, sort it out that troops carry, say, boddy armour, water, rations, ammo and ppe, but no more than that, the rest goes in the CQs wagon or hangs off their APC.

There's a few starters...

Recruiting everyone as a private might have worked 50 years ago but today would kill any prospect of recruiting more capable officers. Stop the RSB process, place the OCdts in an order of merit and give them free choice in that order of merit like West Point.
 

JCC

LE
Let's start by having a clearly defined role for the Army.

1. Home Defence - How do we do it and what is needed to do it.

2. Overseas Territories - How do we do it and what is needed to do it.

3. NATO Commitment - What is needed and what do they need.

You now have a small, but rather nice round robin of postings / tasking.

Start with the basics and start working upwards and outwards.

Trying to be World Policemen in every sh1thole in the world does not do anyone any favours.

I'd be worried that you're starting at too high a level. If we had one excellent Heavy and one excellent Light then those would be the templates we could roll out to TA, to Expeditionary, to whatever.

The root task is to cut out (or replace) what's wrong first.
 
Let's start by having a clearly defined role for the Army.

1. Home Defence - How do we do it and what is needed to do it.

2. Overseas Territories - How do we do it and what is needed to do it.

3. NATO Commitment - What is needed and what do they need.

You now have a small, but rather nice round robin of postings / tasking.

Start with the basics and start working upwards and outwards.

Trying to be World Policemen in every sh1thole in the world does not do anyone any favours.

Some excellent points made so far but this is the way to start I feel...
 
Stop recruiting officers seperately. The very idea that a bunch of semi retired colonels can spot leadership talent in some youth fresh out of college is a historic, foolish, throwback to aristocracy, old school tie and suchlike silliness about class equalling ability.
Recruit everyone as a private soldier, then select potential officers from the juniour NCOs.

Cut the Household Division, and it's influence over the rest of the army: amalgamate all the Guards, HCR, Kings Tp RHA, into 2 battalions of " Guards", one ceremonial ( if need be), the other operational. That's 2 LtCols, and maybe a Col i/c, no star officers at all.
Abolish GSMs, regional/ administrative HQs, and all similar non deployable units, along with the hordes of Staff involved.
Cull MoD head office, again with all the hangers on and paper pushers.
Equalise retirement for all ranks at 40 years of age, compulsorily, however good they claim to be.

Instead of insisting on troops still lugging the same weight of equipment as a Roman legionary, sort it out that troops carry, say, boddy armour, water, rations, ammo and ppe, but no more than that, the rest goes in the CQs wagon or hangs off their APC.

There's a few starters...
You mean 'modernise'?
 
Amalgamate all heavy cavalry into RAC, and light cavalry into Reconnaissance Corps, 2 badges only.
RAC to crew/ command/ operate all AFVs, infantry become passengers only.
Armoured Infantry to be the baseline, light inf/ airborne to be specialist only, for selected volunteers. Within that, rebadge Para Regt as Rifles, bin the Regimental and cap badge systems and simply have 1 single badge for armoured inf, and another 1 for light/ rifles/para.

Don't waste peoples' time and effort by repeatedly cross posting from one to another, trickle posting within speciality, like the Corps, is good enough.
 
The Army of today is run by woke people that are all about Gay rights, Trans rights and appeasing the PC brigade. They are too concerned about what pronouns to use and most that run the show are only concerned about their next promotion.

I would never join todays Army if I was young, there's too many better paid and cushy jobs. If I wanted adventure I would use my better paid job to pay for a decent holiday abroad(with no bull crap), instead of waiting for the underfunded Army to provide that opportunity.

If you want to make the Army good thing to join - get rid of the woke crap, people that want to join it should be trained killing machines (not woke weirdo's). Make sure to fund them properly, make the accommodation better than what's available to illegal immigrants, make sure there's plenty of adventure training (maybe try letting people do it with our Allies countries Army's in a swapping capacity). Make the job attractive for everyone and give them an equal chance at promotion etc. I've seen the PC brigade promoting people based on race/sex etc to fit an agenda, rather than promoting based on true merit - which in turn makes those good soldiers sign off and get a job in civ div where they can earn more, be treated better and more fairly, and have their holidays when they expect to get them, not have their leave cancelled to empty bins, fill sandbags, put out heath fires and the 1001 other crap jobs that the Army get spammed for.

Also when you're going to have a war - have a clear mission with a clear goal and endpoint. Afghanistan was a cluster f*, totally pointless and the Taliban are pretty much still running the show (or soon will be now US have left Bagram and are coming home). I often ask myself if the people that lost husbands, wives, sons etc - think it was worth it, also the people that were maimed by IED's and had life changing injury's had those for what?, the world isn't a better place - if anything it's gotten worse and people's rights have been trampled on.
 

Guns

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Stop recruiting officers seperately. The very idea that a bunch of semi retired colonels can spot leadership talent in some youth fresh out of college is a historic, foolish, throwback to aristocracy, old school tie and suchlike silliness about class equalling ability.
Recruit everyone as a private soldier, then select potential officers from the juniour NCOs.

Cut the Household Division, and it's influence over the rest of the army: amalgamate all the Guards, HCR, Kings Tp RHA, into 2 battalions of " Guards", one ceremonial ( if need be), the other operational. That's 2 LtCols, and maybe a Col i/c, no star officers at all.
Abolish GSMs, regional/ administrative HQs, and all similar non deployable units, along with the hordes of Staff involved.
Cull MoD head office, again with all the hangers on and paper pushers.
Equalise retirement for all ranks at 40 years of age, compulsorily, however good they claim to be.

Instead of insisting on troops still lugging the same weight of equipment as a Roman legionary, sort it out that troops carry, say, boddy armour, water, rations, ammo and ppe, but no more than that, the rest goes in the CQs wagon or hangs off their APC.

There's a few starters...
Bollocks. Why would a graduate engineer join as a private and waste four years of their degree and time to Charter just to make NCO. Stupid idea.
 

Guns

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Stop recruiting officers seperately. The very idea that a bunch of semi retired colonels can spot leadership talent in some youth fresh out of college is a historic, foolish, throwback to aristocracy, old school tie and suchlike silliness about class equalling ability.
Recruit everyone as a private soldier, then select potential officers from the juniour NCOs.

Cut the Household Division, and it's influence over the rest of the army: amalgamate all the Guards, HCR, Kings Tp RHA, into 2 battalions of " Guards", one ceremonial ( if need be), the other operational. That's 2 LtCols, and maybe a Col i/c, no star officers at all.
Abolish GSMs, regional/ administrative HQs, and all similar non deployable units, along with the hordes of Staff involved.
Cull MoD head office, again with all the hangers on and paper pushers.
Equalise retirement for all ranks at 40 years of age, compulsorily, however good they claim to be.

Instead of insisting on troops still lugging the same weight of equipment as a Roman legionary, sort it out that troops carry, say, boddy armour, water, rations, ammo and ppe, but no more than that, the rest goes in the CQs wagon or hangs off their APC.

There's a few starters...
What tosh. MOD HQ is at the bare bones. Pen pushers at Whitehall? What world are you living in?
 
Instead of insisting on troops still lugging the same weight of equipment as a Roman legionary, sort it out that troops carry, say, boddy armour, water, rations, ammo and ppe, but no more than that, the rest goes in the CQs wagon or hangs off their APC.
If I might be so bold to suggest that they be permitted to carry a weapon as well?

Then first aid kits are pretty important, followed by useful kit like radios, electro-optics and explosive things. It’s really easy to pile on the weight.

Didn’t there used to be a thing of fighting order and marching order and a left out of battle contingent? Is that still a thing?

While people seem to get excited about autonomous weapons, it seems that you could achieve a fairly large effect with autonomous logistics.
 

Guns

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
The Army of today is run by woke people that are all about Gay rights, Trans rights and appeasing the PC brigade. They are too concerned about what pronouns to use and most that run the show are only concerned about their next promotion.

I would never join todays Army if I was young, there's too many better paid and cushy jobs. If I wanted adventure I would use my better paid job to pay for a decent holiday abroad(with no bull crap), instead of waiting for the underfunded Army to provide that opportunity.

If you want to make the Army good thing to join - get rid of the woke crap, people that want to join it should be trained killing machines (not woke weirdo's). Make sure to fund them properly, make the accommodation better than what's available to illegal immigrants, make sure there's plenty of adventure training (maybe try letting people do it with our Allies countries Army's in a swapping capacity). Make the job attractive for everyone and give them an equal chance at promotion etc. I've seen the PC brigade promoting people based on race/sex etc to fit an agenda, rather than promoting based on true merit - which in turn makes those good soldiers sign off and get a job in civ div where they can earn more, be treated better and more fairly, and have their holidays when they expect to get them, not have their leave cancelled to empty bins, fill sandbags, put out heath fires and the 1001 other crap jobs that the Army get spammed for.

Also when you're going to have a war - have a clear mission with a clear goal and endpoint. Afghanistan was a cluster f*, totally pointless and the Taliban are pretty much still running the show (or soon will be now US have left Bagram and are coming home). I often ask myself if the people that lost husbands, wives, sons etc - think it was worth it, also the people that were maimed by IED's and had life changing injury's had those for what?, the world isn't a better place - if anything it's gotten worse and people's rights have been trampled on.
To be honest the army wouldn’t want you. Piss stain old ****** you are. Woke army, my arse. You keep reading your Daily Mail and getting upset you might catch the gay from youngsters.
 
Reduce the number of officers:
1 subaltern per platoon/ troop
1 captain per company/ squadron
1 major per battalion/ regiment
1 Lt Col per battlegroup
0 Colonels
1 Brigadier per operational brigade
1 Major General per operational division.

By limiting, from the outset, the levels that the best can reach through up or out, you make the recruitment process much easier, with predictable requirements each year.

While on the subject of ranks and appointments, why do Corps need to be, adminitratively at least, formed into regiments similar to an infantry battalion, when they almost invariably deploy as company/ squadron units in support of a brigade?
Do they really need the entire HQ element of CO, 2ic, Adjt, RSM etc?
 

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