Changes in US Basic Rifle Marksmanship Training?

Discussion in 'Multinational HQ' started by Trip_Wire, Mar 30, 2008.

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  1. Trip_Wire

    Trip_Wire RIP

    I have a few doubts about this in a basic marksmanship course. Many people entering the service now days have little experience with firearms of any kind. I would think a more basic course, prior to this type of advanced training would be better for people without any prior experience with firearms, would be more suitable. IMO, the Army, should look a little closer at the USMC's basic marksmanship course. :wink:

    Ft. Jackson Testing New Weapons Qualification Method
    Mar 27, 2008
    BY Mike A. Glasch

    FORT JACKSON, S.C. (Army News Service, March 27, 2008) -- “One shot, one kill” may be the motto of the Army sniper, but for Soldiers qualifying in Basic Rifle Marksmanship, the traditional one shot per target on the range could soon come to an end.

    The Basic Combat Training Soldiers of 2nd Battalion, 39th Infantry Brigade, are testing a new BRM qualification, which combines elements they will experience on the battlefield -- movement, concealment, presence of civilians and using multiple rounds on an enemy.

    “This is to give Soldiers a qualification standard that is more combat focused,” said Capt. Sammie Burkes, Company C commander. “It requires them to use those marksmanship skills they will encounter in a modern-day battlefield environment.”

    Link to article
  2. I agree, it looks a more realistic method of training our troops.
    Would never be implemented in the U.K though as the majority of our ranges are not cleared for a soldier moving down the range whilst firing.
    It would also mean for most non inf Corps etc they would have to up their quota of skill at arms instructors or run some E qual courses for those who are only RMQ at the moment.
    Looks good though, wouldn't mind having a bash at that myself.
  3. Ah, didnt read the post properly.
    This is for a basic marksmanship course.
    In that case stick to the marksmanships principles, grouping and zeroing and application of fire method. Bring this scenario in later when its clear the recruits are able to hit targets consistently.

    Would still like a go though.
  4. Trip_Wire

    Trip_Wire RIP


    No I didn't check the 'Newest post' button prior to hitting the 'New topic button.' :oops:

    I might have missed it anyway, because of the way you titled it. As the changes, are supposed to be to the basic marksmanship training given to recruits, rather then advanced training, for soldiers and especially for Infantryman IMO who need it the most.

    I think as I have said, that soldiers (recruits) need a more basic introduction to firearms training, than this proposed course does. I appears to me like putting the 'cart before the horse,' to me. :wink:
  5. "The only shot in the British Army, is an aimed shot - This is what sets us apart" - some big scary fella
  6. I think the real answer probably lies somewhere in the middle. I've little problem with the course of fire as a whole (one round per target, targets pop up singly or in pairs at ranges from 25m to 300m). But why they have half the rounds being fired from standing supported (i.e. a foxhole) is a little old-fashioned. They're far better off putting in kneeling, kneeling supported, and standing unsupported.

  7. The modern US Army CQC course good and it's light years fromt he old standard. Have you heard of that course of fire, Tanker? If not, I can post the sub-tasks. Also, if you have an AKO accouint, you can log in and find it in the rifle marksmanship manual.
  8. As I read it, and I am reasonably confident I am corrcet. This is a QUALIFICATION shoot. That is to say the soldiers have already been trained the old fashioned way and, just before this shoot, been given the oportunity to zero (You dont get to attempt the qualification shoot until you zero with a specified grouping size that indicates you can apply the basic principles). I have no problem with making the qualification shoot as realistic as possible.
  9. Trip_Wire

    Trip_Wire RIP

    I agree with you DFS, such a course and/or qualification shoot is great for a soldier who has received basic rifle marksmanship training. The course as described sounds like an excellent course, after a soldier is trained in basic marksmanship and/or weapons handling, etc.

    My reason, for thinking this is that many recruits going into the Army, now days, particularly from large cities have no experience at all with firearms at all. (Unless their Gang members :roll: )

    IMO they all need to learn the basics of marksmanship and weapons handling, prior to taking on such a course as described. IMO to run this course as described, without the basics, would place the individual soldiers and the instructors in unsafe conditions. ('The Cart before the horse.')

    I still think that of all of our Armed Forces, the USMC turns out the best all around basic rifle marksman. The reason they do IMO, is the experienced DIs, who are expert marksman themselves, the course itself, as well as the time spent on training the individual soldier with that rifle. BTW: I'm not a Marine, nor have I ever been one. :)

    I have always thought the USMC had the right idea, in training all Marines to be an Infantryman, no matter what their rank, or job is in the Corps. :wink:

    BTW: The USMC Rifleman's Creed.:

    The Rifleman's Creed
    by Major General W. H. Rupertus, USMC

    THIS IS MY RIFLE. There are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I master my life. My rifle, without me is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than any enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will....

    My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...

    My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weakness, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will...

    Before God I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life. So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but Peace.

  10. Trip_Wire

    Trip_Wire RIP

    I think that FM 3-22-9 covers the various stages of training needed by the indivudual soldier, for rifle training better than the article I posted. It has many sections that cover such training, especially the need for basics in the training.


    This section details the effective and proven method of training the soldier in preliminary rifle marksmanship. The following marksmanship training guide contains the current tasks that are trained in basic rifle marksmanship programs, during basic combat training at Army training centers (ATCs), and during infantry one-station unit training (OSUT). It provides a basis for structuring unit sustainment programs. The unit normally performs a diagnostic test of the tasks and only conducts training on specific periods for soldiers who must improve their basic firing skills. Training is usually conducted in a shorter time frame than at IET.

    Two primary components form the training strategy: initial training and sustainment training. Both may include individual and collective skills. Initial training must be taught correctly the first time. A task taught correctly and learned well is retained longer and skills can be sustained. However, an individual or unit eventually loses skill proficiency.

    This learning decay depends on many factors such as the difficulty and complexity of the task. Personnel turnover is a main factor in decay of collective skills, since the loss of critical team members requires retraining to regain proficiency. If a long period elapses between initial and sustainment sessions or training doctrine is altered retraining may be required.

  11. All range work should be a culmination of training. Turning up on a range just to convert rounds is a waste of time. This is just another form of training it will not replace normal range work which should be a prelude to going on this course.

    You argument that as the recruits have not handled weapons before joining up so this could be unsafe is very weak. Very few of any UK recruits will have seen let alone handled a real weapon before joining and they do very well. This range is similar to the IBSR we have known a loved for well over 30 years and compared to the ones at Lydd and Hythe is very poor.


    Just to clarify this is One firing point/lane, there are another 11 beside it. You move forward from a point behind the cover to engage the enemy from cover. Then move down range again moving to cover as the enemy appear. Can’t remember if you move forward 100 or 125 m in all
  12. Trip_Wire

    Trip_Wire RIP


    Did you look through FM 3-22-9?

    My point on recruits was that they needed a BASIC course in firearms and/or marksmanship, before getting into what I consider an advanced combat inspired course. I think that the FM covers this.

  13. Please point to one as i cannot think on a range that has not let you move forwared of the firing point unless you mean .22 indoor.
  14. I think you are getting hung up on the title “basic”. As your manual points out this type of range work is follow on training once the soldier has joined their Bn not recruit training.