Change in murder law proposed

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by bensonby, Jul 29, 2008.

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  1. I'm really in two minds about this. On one hand, domestic violence is a terrible thing and we should protect people from its devastating effects. You are much, much more likely to be killed by a partner or ex partner than anyone else.

    However, this seems to open the door to premeditated murder. What would the burden of proof be on the "murderer" to demonstrate that they had suffered long term abuse? I would argue that a planned and calculated attack is always wrong and that there are always other options.

    On the other hand a "red mist" murder where someone "snaps" in the heat of the moment seems to be less of a defence in these proposals. Where it is more understandable (if not morally good) that someone would commit a murder after a sudden and heinous shock and being overcome by passion. (i.e. finding your partner in bed with someone else)
  2. There are no easy answers to domestic violence, but surely anybody in a violent relatioship has the option to LEAVE a violent partner!
  3. I had to laugh when one of the lawyers complained about a mandatory life sentance for murder - FFS, these days, "life" means 12 years for most killers!
  4. Clearly, if it was simple to leave a violent partner then more people would do that but it's not. Think about it for a minute - where do you go? How do you stop your partner finding you? Why would you go to the Police when there is still not a national and consistent response to domestic violence? How do you support yourself and your children? How do you face your mutual friends and family if they carry out their threat to kill themselves? And how do you solve all these dilemmas and many more when existing in a state of permanent terror?

    In terms of the red mist argument, there is research evidence that demonstrates women reach a state of committing violence in a different way to men - more of a slow burn than a flare up.

  5. Maybe or maybe not, but even if this is the case, why should the law be changed as suggested to disallow a defence of provocation leading to a 'flare up' act of violence, but to specifically allow a defence of a provocation leading to a 'slow burn' act of violence? (Unless, of course the proposal is inherently sexist).

    The state (rightly) does not have the right to exercise the death penalty for any crimes whatsoever, even after the crime has been proved through due process - this right should not, therefore, be given to individuals to exercise to avenge an alleged crime that may or may not even have happened (the alleged perpetrator handily now being dead).

    Killing someone because not do to so would lead to your own life being endangered may be justfied. Killing someone because you are not sure where you are going to live or what your income source will be is never justified.
  6. No doubt by "The powers vested in me by News International.." a la Monkey Dust.
  7. Dilfor, I don't think that this proposal is to allow women who kill their partners being freed without charge. I think it's more about creating another form of offence. Wasn't there some discussion recently about creating different degrees of murder, as in the States?

    And it's not about killing someone because you don't know where you're going to live or what your income will be FFS - it's about killing because you think you're going to die otherwise, or in a state of red mist, isn't it?

    I have some experience of this. I know someone close to me who we were terribly afraid would find themselves up on a murder charge for that very reason, because of the years (about 16 in total) of physical, emotional and mental abuse at the hands of an alcoholic, psychotic and deranged spouse. The fact he was a well over 6' Infantry officer didn't stop it happening. It ended when she died of cancer.

    It was suggested to me that I should have been grateful that my husband didn't hit me when I explained why I was leaving - I said I wouldn't be divorcing him if he had... I'd be burying him with an axe in his head.

    I find the subject very difficult to think about objectively, I can't understand how anyone can look themselves in the mirror having done that to someone who is supposed to be their partner.
  8. How's it going to work in gay relationships then, will one have to be the registered "reciever" and therefore the get out applies or will both be able to kill each other? Dunno what the rug munchers will do, maybe the ugliest one will be the "man".
  9. Unfortunately not.
  10. Which also leaves much scope for suggesting premeditation and planning Ahluwalia [1992]. Makes for a interesting argument though.
  11. This is surely overlooking the vital fact that all women are "f ucking begging for it" and need pulling into line frequently, if a small percentage of these die, then perhaps this should act as a warning to the others to buck their f ucking ideas up and make sure teas ready on time.
  12. What I find hard to reconcile is the pre-meditated nature of the act of killing in these "long term" cases. The threat of serious injury or death is not immediately present in a case of a pre-meditated killing; therefore, it cannot be "self defence" - at least, in the common understanding of it. If there is time to plan a killing like this then surely there is time to find a means of escape? It seems cold, calculating and visious.

    On the other hand a "provocation", whilst not excusable, is more understandable in from an emotional perspective. "Red mist" does funny things to people, and a violent immediate shock will provoke a violent immediate reaction.

    It the proposal (going by "meedja" reports) just seems rather logicall topsy turvy. If you stubbed your toe on a table leg you may shout "shoite" and feel a bit of rage. If you stubbed your toe on it day in day out for years you wouldn't approach it in the dead of night and chop it up into firewood would you?
  13. The threat of serious injury or death is ALWAYS present when someone is holding your head and banging it against the floor, punching you in the stomach and dragging you by the hair down the stairs..........every day. Have you ever talked with any length of time to a domestic abuse victim or seen them interviewed?

    There is a general difference between how men and women tend to deal with fear, pain and anger. There s research to show that women don't tend to do the 'red mist' thing (unless they have severe PMT when it is absolutely possible! But that's not what we're talking about).

    And then you factor in children, economics etc. I think women are thinking about surviving and keeping their childrens' lives together, not about retaliation - until they get to a certain point.

    I can only go on what I've read and observed, I'm not an expert in this area. There's enough coppers who might be able to give a better perspective - and I bet there's a few people on this site who either witnessed it happening when they were kids or who are perpetrators themselves, maybe they have a view..
  14. You could take this to extremes. Why would it solely lay at the door of domestic abuse? How about psychological abuse or sexually abuse in the work place? A 'slow burn' affect that builds over months and years and suddenly explodes when Mr. MD(N) touches his secretary in the stationary cupboard and she fcuks him over the head with an industrial stapler?
  15. Tough on Crime !!!