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CGS:upgrading challenger and warrior.

"Idea is also that new CR2 turret could be mated to new hull to create a Leopard 2 competitor."

Um, how? It's a CR2 upgrade. It doesn't result in a competitor. The follow-on to Leo2 is already in train. It's not like a 'CR2 Mk2' line will be created, is it? It's just a means of giving us viability to out-of-service.


Bet you dollars to donuts when the dust settles, this is nothing but a modified existing turret with a new U.K. specific armour pack.
The bustle, gun, sight models and sight, hatch positions - it’s basically an A7 turret with a Dorchester armour pack and a new big bustle magazine. Turret rings match and an Leo turret on CR2 has been looked at before.

As it will be a ‘new’ turret made in Telford, and looks like the existing one, everyone can pretend its ‘proper Britain’
 
What are the positives (& negatives) of using the CR2 hull, suspension, wheels & tracks?
Certainly its cross country performance appears to be highly thought of for several reasons & I presume whatever it is constructed of has only seen small, if any improvements.
Turret ring appears big enough going by today's information.


CR2 like the Merkava has exceptional off road mobility.
Want to go over properly broken ground? Either of them two lead the pack.
 
Bet you dollars to donuts when the dust settles, this is nothing but a modified existing turret with a new U.K. specific armour pack.
The bustle, gun, sight models and sight, hatch positions - it’s basically an A7 turret with a Dorchester armour pack and a new big bustle magazine. Turret rings match and an Leo turret on CR2 has been looked at before.

As it will be a ‘new’ turret made in Telford, and looks like the existing one, everyone can pretend its ‘proper Britain’


and we’ll all be whistling PANZERLEID
 
Bet you dollars to donuts when the dust settles, this is nothing but a modified existing turret with a new U.K. specific armour pack.
The bustle, gun, sight models and sight, hatch positions - it’s basically an A7 turret with a Dorchester armour pack and a new big bustle magazine. Turret rings match and an Leo turret on CR2 has been looked at before.

As it will be a ‘new’ turret made in Telford, and looks like the existing one, everyone can pretend its ‘proper Britain’

A couple of people on here rather closer to it have already suggested not. And with the new JV, nothing is ‘proper Britain’. The whole ‘Buy British’ issue is dead.

In the end, does it matter? The can is no longer being kicked along and we’ve got something on the very near horizon that is rather better than managed obsolescence.

If this is what we’re getting, good job done.
 
This is all rather too good to be true. I need a darkened room to lie down in.
We have a more that reasonable chance of getting an excellent upgrade. This can't be right...
 
This is all rather too good to be true. I need a darkened room to lie down in.
We have a more that reasonable chance of getting an excellent upgrade. This can't be right...

It's because the programme didn't have 'Future' in the title. I'm really beginning to think that there's something in that. :-D
 
And now, with the Germans "in charge", we can all be assured it will be done VERY EFFICIENTLY ;) .

The sad thing is, we were no slouches. Centurion was a world-leader for a long time. Chieftain would have been the same if we hadn't gone multi-fuel. We came off the pace a little with Challenger 1, which was essentially a 'Chobham Chieftain' inherited because of regime change in Iran, and which used a rather dated fire control system by comparison with emerging contemporaries such as the M1, but Challenger 2 when it arrived was us at the top of our - no, the - game.

It was absolutely as good as anything out there and equalled or bettered the majority in a majority of areas. It's sad that we lost that. But the design remains sound in many areas - the suspension, for instance, and levels of protection. The sticking points were the gun and systems. For a long time, the former in particular was seen as an insurmountable issue but apparently not.

If this is what we're getting, I'm immensely pleased. That's me as an armchair observer, and - more importantly - on behalf of the young men and women who will have to go in harm's way and operate these things. Tea and medals/knighthoods all round, even if the end result has the feel of a happy accident.
 
The sad thing is, we were no slouches. Centurion was a world-leader for a long time. Chieftain would have been the same if we hadn't gone multi-fuel. We came off the pace a little with Challenger 1, which was essentially a 'Chobham Chieftain' inherited because of regime change in Iran, and which used a rather dated fire control system by comparison with emerging contemporaries such as the M1, but Challenger 2 when it arrived was us at the top of our - no, the - game.

It was absolutely as good as anything out there and equalled or bettered the majority in a majority of areas. It's sad that we lost that. But the design remains sound in many areas - the suspension, for instance, and levels of protection. The sticking points were the gun and systems. For a long time, the former in particular was seen as an insurmountable issue but apparently not.

If this is what we're getting, I'm immensely pleased. That's me as an armchair observer, and - more importantly - on behalf of the young men and women who will have to go in harm's way and operate these things. Tea and medals/knighthoods all round, even if the end result has the feel of a happy accident.
We were indeed good at the MBT game. CR1 was actually a good step in the right direction and provided continuity for crews in systems that were getting to the end (not past) their useful life, plus of course saving the MoD millions.

CR2 was a top tank, not only on introduction but throughout it's life. It still has a good punch and it's armour is second to none so can take a punch too.

Where I think the MoD went wrong with CR2 was not insisting on it's turret and systems being upgradeable but from the little we've been teased with about the LEP, that no longer applies. The pack, transmision and suspension have always been upgradeable but I can't see any urgent need for that at present so, IF the LEP that we've been teased with actually gets approved, I see no need for a replacement until Leo 3 (Eurotank) is born.
 
Where I think the MoD went wrong with CR2 was not insisting on it's turret and systems being upgradeable but from the little we've been teased with about the LEP, that no longer applies. The pack, transmision and suspension have always been upgradeable but I can't see any urgent need for that at present so, IF the LEP that we've been teased with actually gets approved, I see no need for a replacement until Leo 3 (Eurotank) is born.

With regard to the bold - they are upgradeable, hence what's happening with the LEP (upgradeable/replaceable being largely interchangeable in many respects). It's just that 'we' haven't/didn't.

Where we went wrong was fielding the vehicle and then shutting down the follow-on development capability. Yes, there were design philosophies (such as two-part ammunition and lower hull stowage) and yes, we continued to pursue a rifled gun (and remain wedded to HESH), but our evolutionary path and the solutions it resulted in were up to that point as effective as or more so than those of our contemporaries and adversaries.

In terms of systems, TOGS was cutting edge. We carried it over from CR1 to CR2 (all we did was put it above the gun rather than on the turret side) because there was simply nothing better worth having at the time. However, that was 30 years ago.

Quite simply, we were in the vanguard at the time we stopped. But we stopped.

Looking at what's happening here, I see paths opening up which are very encouraging. Elsewhere in terms of future systems we've already, for instance, decided to buy the AH-64E rather than develop another orphan. We've bought into the P-8 and will hopefully do the same with the E-7 Wedgetail. The first two and hopefully the third as well all take us into larger developmental programmes with economies of scale and firmer guarantees that progression will happen, if only because we can have our feet held to the fire by our peers.

If that's also about to happen on the land system front, great. If 'Cr2 Mk2' (is there not a case for it coming CR3?) leads us into Leo3 but with the ability to enhance the state of the art with a few bits and pieces such as our own armour packages (and the Swedes and Singaporeans have already done that with Leo2), then superb.

What the JV has done has removed what many saw as a political obstacle/reason to can-kick: Buy British.

Publicly at least, we are in a much better position than we were a few months ago.
 
With regard to the bold - they are upgradeable, hence what's happening with the LEP (upgradeable/replaceable being largely interchangeable in many respects). It's just that 'we' haven't/didn't.

Where we went wrong was fielding the vehicle and then shutting down the follow-on development capability. Yes, there were design philosophies (such as two-part ammunition and lower hull stowage) and yes, we continued to pursue a rifled gun (and remain wedded to HESH), but our evolutionary path and the solutions it resulted in were up to that point as effective as or more so than those of our contemporaries and adversaries.

In terms of systems, TOGS was cutting edge. We carried it over from CR1 to CR2 (all we did was put it above the gun rather than on the turret side) because there was simply nothing better worth having at the time. However, that was 30 years ago.

Quite simply, we were in the vanguard at the time we stopped. But we stopped.

Looking at what's happening here, I see paths opening up which are very encouraging. Elsewhere in terms of future systems we've already, for instance, decided to buy the AH-64E rather than develop another orphan. We've bought into the P-8 and will hopefully do the same with the E-7 Wedgetail. The first two and hopefully the third as well all take us into larger developmental programmes with economies of scale and firmer guarantees that progression will happen, if only because we can have our feet held to the fire by our peers.

If that's also about to happen on the land system front, great. If 'Cr2 Mk2' (is there not a case for it coming CR3?) leads us into Leo3 but with the ability to enhance the state of the art with a few bits and pieces such as our own armour packages (and the Swedes and Singaporeans have already done that with Leo2), then superb.

What the JV has done has removed what many saw as a political obstacle/reason to can-kick: Buy British.

Publicly at least, we are in a much better position than we were a few months ago.
CR2 turret & gun in it's current guise is upgradeable only by changing the turret and gun as shown by RM's version of the LEP. We argued long and hard about that throughout this thread.

TOGs was carried over from Chieftain to CR1 first, I remember it well and the arguments about which trade was responsible for it's servicing and repair.

If we get what has come out of the LEP, and it's still a big if, it will more likely become known as CR2 Mk 2. I do see us getting on board with the development of Leo 3 and I see our armour being a massive plus to the project, but to allow that there will have to be controls on who Leo 3 gets sold to. Leo 3 with our armour would, in my opinion, be a world beater.
 
CR2 turret & gun in it's current guise is upgradeable only by changing the turret and gun as shown by RM's version of the LEP. We argued long and hard about that throughout this thread.

TOGs was carried over from Chieftain to CR1 first, I remember it well and the arguments about which trade was responsible for it's servicing and repair.

If we get what has come out of the LEP, and it's still a big if, it will more likely become known as CR2 Mk 2. I do see us getting on board with the development of Leo 3 and I see our armour being a massive plus to the project, but to allow that there will have to be controls on who Leo 3 gets sold to. Leo 3 with our armour would, in my opinion, be a world beater.

I think we're arguing the same thing in the first paragraph. TOGs I thought went on CR1 first then back onto Chieftain for the last Mark(s) in service? Happy to be corrected. With regard to your last - if, aye. Equally, we can always further upgrade any baseline model - hence my mentioning the Swedes and Singaporeans. Agreed on Leo3 with our armour.

In fact, not disagreeing with anything you say, necessarily. Just making a few related points.
 
CR2 turret & gun in it's current guise is upgradeable only by changing the turret and gun as shown by RM's version of the LEP. We argued long and hard about that throughout this thread.
And each time I make the point that the upgrade path, at the time, was 140mm firing two part ammunition. That we stopped development of it while others continued with 120mm smoothbore is the problem rather than the original design.
 
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