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FEASG

LE
BW, in his recollection doesn’t mention the mortar hatches open, maybe for dramatic effect before the retelling of Danny boy, on a podcast, however he does mention the infantry getting the good news inside the wagon.
It makes sense, as on the OPs we did with them they often had the rear hatches open, with LMG's up providing top cover to the rear.
 

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Hello, the early 1940s want you back....

Anybody who thinks we can afford a heavy armour force, with stored reserve, that can operate independently of Allies is, well, has, been ignoring reality.

I'd point out that the BEF was a light inf force, which was deployed with no heavy armour, due I suspect to cost.
Then when it all went manky, the armour was rushed over and deployed to the front from the march, so to speak, and it went badly.

Not sure I'd be popular to highlight that to Carter.
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
And anyone who thinks what we dreamt up the other week is adequate has been lobotomised.
Well, don’t count me in either camp. It’s easy to throw stones, raise your voice and point a finger when your not responsible.

That’s just an observation, not a dig btw.
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
I'd point out that the BEF was a light inf force, which was deployed with no heavy armour, due I suspect to cost.
Then when it all went manky, the armour was rushed over and deployed to the front from the march, so to speak, and it went badly.

Not sure I'd be popular to highlight that to Carter.
No heavy armour? 1st Army Tank Bde was part of the ‘First’ BEF with Matilda II.
I’m no expert on this this so I may be wrong, but I don’t think that the BEF totally mirrored ‘Carter’s Own’ especially by the standards of 1940.
 
No heavy armour? 1st Army Tank Bde? Matilda II?
I’m no expert on this this so I may be wrong, but I don’t think that the BEF totally mirrored ‘Carter’s Own’ especially by the standards of 1940.
Matilda Infantry tank and Vickers light tanks ? Bren gun carriers hauling AT guns around ?
I'd argue that for the time , they probably were good.
Note that the Matilda was probably amongst the best protected tank of its time with a gun that was needing replacement...
...oooh.
'Ang on ...erm ...
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Matilda Infantry tank and Vickers light tanks ? Bren gun carriers hauling AT guns around ?
I'd argue that for the time , they probably were good.
Note that the Matilda was probably amongst the best protected tank of its time with a gun that was needing replacement...
...oooh.
'Ang on ...erm ...
The 2pdr was adequate against the opposition at the time. The Matilda II's armour was exceptional for the time.
 
I'd point out that the BEF was a light inf force, which was deployed with no heavy armour, due I suspect to cost.
Then when it all went manky, the armour was rushed over and deployed to the front from the march, so to speak, and it went badly.

Not sure I'd be popular to highlight that to Carter.
Wasn’t it the expectation that the French would provide the heavy armour, as they could then boast tanks with heavy firepower?
The Germans did their job with fairly light tanks.
 
Hello, the early 1940s want you back....

Anybody who thinks we can afford a heavy armour force, with stored reserve, that can operate independently of Allies is, well, has, been ignoring reality.


We can afford a decent number of tanks to support the fiction that is the War Fighting Division and store enough to cover a respectable percentage of the Active forces for battle replacements.

We unfortunately have a selection of VSOs who elect to waste money on arguments over how to eat sandwiches, Barrack Dress shirts and creating imaginary roles for Light Role Infantry Battalions we can barely manage to even half man.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
We can afford a decent number of tanks to support the fiction that is the War Fighting Division and store enough to cover a respectable percentage of the Active forces for battle replacements.

We unfortunately have a selection of VSOs who elect to waste money on arguments over how to eat sandwiches, Barrack Dress shirts and creating imaginary roles for Light Role Infantry Battalions we can barely manage to even half man.
Yes, but there are whole individual careers to be made like that.
 
No heavy armour? 1st Army Tank Bde was part of the ‘First’ BEF with Matilda II.
I’m no expert on this this so I may be wrong, but I don’t think that the BEF totally mirrored ‘Carter’s Own’ especially by the standards of 1940.

You may want to note shipping times, and not just rely on the Order of Battles found around the internet, which invariably only contain the data from 10th May 1940.

The BEF lacked any armour originally. Armour was brought up to strength slowly. For example:
1st Army Tank brigade: The 7th RTR only arrived in 'Early May 1940', I've not been able to find out when 4th RTR arrived, or the exact date for 7th. Assuming that the date was 1st of May, that only leaves a week to get to the front, rest, repair and familiarise yourself with the plans and sectors, do all your pre-combat maintance and repairs and rest your crews etc.
They also had to re-jig the squadrons swapping tanks about to equalise the number of A12's in each regiment. Which adds to the fun.

1st Armoured division arrived on the 14th of May 1940, four days after the start of the German attack.

Prior to that the only armour that was available was Vickers Light's and assorted carriers and armoured cars, and a shit ton of infantry, on foot.

As to tank quality:
I'll give you the short version:
German tanks were shite. They were either outclassed or equal too the British variants in almost every aspect. Equally, the Germans used pretty much the same doctrine as the British. Difference was the Germans deployed their armour from the start, with ap roper logistics plan and support in place. The 1st Armoured had to road march from its disembarkation points to the front line, and straight into battle. Which has always been, and likely always will be a terrible idea which will result in a wrecked attack.
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
You may want to note shipping times, and not just rely on the Order of Battles found around the internet, which invariably only contain the data from 10th May 1940.

The BEF lacked any armour originally. Armour was brought up to strength slowly. For example:
1st Army Tank brigade: The 7th RTR only arrived in 'Early May 1940', I've not been able to find out when 4th RTR arrived, or the exact date for 7th. Assuming that the date was 1st of May, that only leaves a week to get to the front, rest, repair and familiarise yourself with the plans and sectors, do all your pre-combat maintance and repairs and rest your crews etc.
They also had to re-jig the squadrons swapping tanks about to equalise the number of A12's in each regiment. Which adds to the fun.

1st Armoured division arrived on the 14th of May 1940, four days after the start of the German attack.

Prior to that the only armour that was available was Vickers Light's and assorted carriers and armoured cars, and a shit ton of infantry, on foot.

As to tank quality:
I'll give you the short version:
German tanks were shite. They were either outclassed or equal too the British variants in almost every aspect. Equally, the Germans used pretty much the same doctrine as the British. Difference was the Germans deployed their armour from the start, with ap roper logistics plan and support in place. The 1st Armoured had to road march from its disembarkation points to the front line, and straight into battle. Which has always been, and likely always will be a terrible idea which will result in a wrecked attack.
I can agree with (most) of that although classifying a Mk IV as shite when it became the backbone of the Panzerwaffe is debatable. I doubt there were many of them. I’m not sure the Germans actually had that many ‘heavy’ tanks - certainly a smaller number than the French. I doubt France was lost due to faulty tank design more an inability to wield them effectively and a chronic inability to seize and hold the initiative.
 

syrup

LE
It makes sense, as on the OPs we did with them they often had the rear hatches open, with LMG's up providing top cover to the rear.

Wasn't part of down to heat also
IIRC wagons were getting places and the lads were suffering from heat injuries just being in the back.

I remember being in a Spartan and you couldn't put your arms any where as it was red hot and when were down inside it did feel lie you were cooking


IIRC a temperature reading of 80C plus was taken in one of the vehicles.
I also seem to remember a Welsh Guards Snatch being it from an IED above ground which nearly got the top cover guys
 
I can agree with (most) of that although classifying a Mk IV as shite when it became the backbone of the Panzerwaffe is debatable.

Key word there is 'became'. The machine of 1940 was very different to the machine of say, 1942. In France most Panzer IV's had 30-35mm of armour, at a maximum. A speed of 26mph on the road, and just 15 off road. Then you have the 75mm L/24 gun.

There's a brilliant little battle between some A.11's and Panzer IV's during the Arras counter attack. Which starts when the Panzer IV's are flagged down by the British Adj, as he thinks the tanks are a missing tank unit, he climbs on the tank and both sides start talking, only to suddenly realise that the wrong language is being spoken. the Adj hops off and legs it, purseued by a few burst of MG. Then the A.11's show up. There follows a short range firefight for several minutes, which causes no damage or injuries, as neither side can hurt the other. Eventually both sides run out of Ammo (I think the British ran out first due to having machine guns) and the A.11's withdraw.
 

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