CGS:upgrading challenger and warrior.

[incendiarycutlery]

Its also heading the same way as the 105mm L7, great gun coming to the end of its life. Installing it now would be an expensive mistake in 10 years time.

The 130mm is also an unproven system with no users. Not being lead customer for someone elses profit stream and derisking their product for them would make a nice change.

 

[Bardeyai]

Oh, I can rattle these things off in no time. Just ask the missus.

Thanks! I asked her for her opinion. She said “ OH FFS! I get enough of that shit from him”. Is there any room in that Doghouse? I have my own beer.

 

[Cold_Collation]

132 is more than enough to equip the currently planned British Army orbat (of 2 tank regiments)

Yes, but the point is that with only a few kicking around, the Russian Army isn't going to be awash with them. The production run of 2,300 was postponed and then cancelled. The 100-odd examples will be going to the 2nd Guards Motor Rifle Division... so Moscow, then.

You'll be far more likely to encounter T-72+.

In fact (from Wikipedia):

In July 2018, Deputy Prime Minister for Defence and Space Industry Yuri Borisov said there is currently no need to mass-produce the Armata when its older predecessors, namely the latest variants of the T-72, remain "effective against American, German and French counterparts”, saying, “Why flood our military with Armatas, the T-72s are in great demand on the market(s).” Instead, a modernization program of the T-72s, T-80s and T-90s in-service will take precedence.

More yet, because:

In August 2018, at the ARMY2018 Forum outside Moscow, the Russian Ministry of Defence signed a contract for the purchase of 32 T-14s tanks and 100 T-25 IFVs, with delivery to be finished by 2021.

...so it's 132 of all types based on the Armata platform, and only 32 MBTs.

 

[fantassin]

Ditto Char B

Char B had various camouflage patterns but l cannot remember a dazzle type. Do you have a picture ?

 

[Lindermyer]

The 130mm is also an unproven system with no users. Not being lead customer for someone elses profit stream and derisking their product for them would make a nice change.

On the other hand UK lead the way with 120mm (and before that the L7)
Perhaps if theres genuine interest going 130mm and leaping ahead would give the prospect of developing a baseline export turret compatible with Leo etc or leverage with the Future Euro Tank.

I certainly would look at those prospects before going with the 120mm

 

[Cold_Collation]

Thanks! I asked her for her opinion. She said “ OH FFS! I get enough of that shit from him”. Is there any room in that Doghouse? I have my own beer.

You can sleep in the coal-shed, if you like.

 

[rampant]

Oh, I can rattle these things off in no time. Just ask the missus.

Which one?

 

[Bardeyai]

Char B had various camouflage patterns but l cannot remember a dazzle type. Do you have a picture ?

No. Sorry, I made that up but I was referring to a long-standing discussion on what colours either the Matilda (or Char B ) in Bovington ought to be.
It was Matilda: most of the world’s remaining Matilda’s have their colour scheme based on the camouflage pattern of the one in Bovington ( plenty of yellow) but it is wrong, apparently. Yellow was a primer.
NB: I may be stealing all of this from The Chieftains Hatch episodes on Matilda .

 

[Bardeyai]

You can sleep in the coal-shed, if you like.

Wouldn’t be the first time.

 

[Bubbles_Barker]

Yes, but the point is that with only a few kicking around, the Russian Army isn't going to be awash with them. The production run of 2,300 was postponed and then cancelled. The 100-odd examples will be going to the 2nd Guards Motor Rifle Division... so Moscow, then.

You'll be far more likely to encounter T-72+.

In fact (from Wikipedia):

In July 2018, Deputy Prime Minister for Defence and Space Industry Yuri Borisov said there is currently no need to mass-produce the Armata when its older predecessors, namely the latest variants of the T-72, remain "effective against American, German and French counterparts”, saying, “Why flood our military with Armatas, the T-72s are in great demand on the market(s).” Instead, a modernization program of the T-72s, T-80s and T-90s in-service will take precedence.

More yet, because:

In August 2018, at the ARMY2018 Forum outside Moscow, the Russian Ministry of Defence signed a contract for the purchase of 32 T-14s tanks and 100 T-25 IFVs, with delivery to be finished by 2021.

...so it's 132 of all types based on the Armata platform, and only 32 MBTs.

A JagdTiger for the 21st Century.

Best ignored.

 

[Bardeyai]

On the other hand UK lead the way with 120mm (and before that the L7)
Perhaps if theres genuine interest going 130mm and leaping ahead would give the prospect of developing a baseline export turret compatible with Leo etc or leverage with the Future Euro Tank.

I certainly would look at those prospects before going with the 120mm

Gun barrels used to be made at RO Nottingham. When that closed 15+ years ago I was told that it had all been transferred to Barrow. I asked what about the old bloke who worked the big press using the Mk1 eyeball ( more accurate than any computer I was told). He’s retired.
I doubt we’ve made a large calibre barrel since Notts shut. If so, we won’t be.

 

[Listy]

Just what paint job did Matilda have in May 1940.

Wide bands of light and dark green.

Editi now see your later posts. You're talking of counter. The problem is the blue colour. Of you head over to the modelling forum I posted a good link on the subject. However, I'm on my mobile tight now do can't post it for you.

 

[Cold_Collation]

I guess you're all talking about the Caunter scheme and the bright blue which was assumed to be correct but is now being challenged.

ETA: It's now assumed that Bovington got it wrong with the Matilda and that the colours were a lot more muted.

 

[gafkiwi]

Yes, but the point is that with only a few kicking around, the Russian Army isn't going to be awash with them. The production run of 2,300 was postponed and then cancelled. The 100-odd examples will be going to the 2nd Guards Motor Rifle Division... so Moscow, then.

You'll be far more likely to encounter T-72+.

In fact (from Wikipedia):

In July 2018, Deputy Prime Minister for Defence and Space Industry Yuri Borisov said there is currently no need to mass-produce the Armata when its older predecessors, namely the latest variants of the T-72, remain "effective against American, German and French counterparts”, saying, “Why flood our military with Armatas, the T-72s are in great demand on the market(s).” Instead, a modernization program of the T-72s, T-80s and T-90s in-service will take precedence.

More yet, because:

In August 2018, at the ARMY2018 Forum outside Moscow, the Russian Ministry of Defence signed a contract for the purchase of 32 T-14s tanks and 100 T-25 IFVs, with delivery to be finished by 2021.

...so it's 132 of all types based on the Armata platform, and only 32 MBTs.

I'd say they would largely become part of a trials and development battalion with other key tasks being dog and pony show for parades and a demonstrations unit for the manufacturers, displaying wares for deep pocketed foreigners

 

[Listy]

I guess you're all talking about the Caunter scheme and the bright blue which was assumed to be correct but is now being challenged.

ETA: It's now assumed that Bovington got it wrong with the Matilda and that the colours were a lot more muted.
View attachment 543696View attachment 543698

The story is that it came from the IWM. Airfix then copied their paint scheme in its instructions back in the 70s. Then you get the cascade effect.

See here for accurate colours:

British Vehicle Camouflage, 1939-45

British AFV Camouflage, 1939-45 Version 2.6 August 2001: AMENDED 30th APRIL 2019 by Michael Starmer. Mike Starmer and Mike Cooper Please delete previous versions. This summary is intended to …

www.mafva.org

 

[fantassin]

And- for bragging rights - the French once had a light tank with a big gun, theirs was the AMX-13. I knocked the turret off one on Hohne ranges using Shush- Prac at @ 900m. Yes, I blew the turret off it with a lump of concrete. Grr!

The israelis used SS 11 training rounds when they ran out of live rounds during the 6 days war. They were sufficient to remove the turrets of egyptian MBTs on several occasions.

 

[Cold_Collation]

And- for bragging rights - the French once had a light tank with a big gun, theirs was the AMX-13. I knocked the turret off one on Hohne ranges using Shush- Prac at @ 900m. Yes, I blew the turret off it with a lump of concrete. Grr!

The 75mm on the AMX-13 is often said by many to have been based on the Panther's main armament, although just as many dispute that it wasn't and that 'based on' is confused with 'influenced by' - where 'influenced by' is very tangential indeed.

One way or another, it was a lot of gun for a light tank which emerged barely more than half a dozen years after WWII. The same gun was grafted across from its AMX-13s to its M4s by the Israelis to create the first of their Super Shermans.

 

[fantassin]

The 75mm on the AMX-13 is often said by many to have been based on the Panther's main armament, although just as many dispute that it wasn't and that 'based on' is confused with 'influenced by' - where 'influenced by' is very tangential indeed.

One way or another, it was a lot of gun for a light tank which emerged barely more than half a dozen years after WWII. The same gun was grafted across from its AMX-13s to its M4s by the Israelis to create the first of their Super Shermans.

The revolver loading system of the AMX 13 was also original and allowed a high rate of fire.

In the below film it's possible to see the empty shell being evacuated through the rear hatch as a new round is chambered.

 

[Bardeyai]

The 75mm on the AMX-13 is often said by many to have been based on the Panther's main armament, although just as many dispute that it wasn't and that 'based on' is confused with 'influenced by' - where 'influenced by' is very tangential indeed.

One way or another, it was a lot of gun for a light tank which emerged barely more than half a dozen years after WWII. The same gun was grafted across from its AMX-13s to its M4s by the Israelis to create the first of their Super Shermans.

I have a vague memory of sharing a brew and a chat with a French unit somewhere (wearing the Motto does wonders for your popularity with other armies). Nice lads, so we had a look around each others wagons. They were AMX-13 crews and, in memory, inside the turret was all breech block. Not a lot of room in there for the crew.
That's why blowing the turret off the AMX-13 with a lump of concrete sticks in my memory., we had been chatting with the crews of those vehicles 2 years before and they were death traps.
Equally, who amongst us hasn't gone for a cheeky wander along the back of Lulworth ranges and stopped off for a look to see what happened to Chieftain tanks used as hard targets?
Oh dear, dispiriting!

 

[Lindermyer]

Was AMX 13 upgunned to 90mm or am i having a brainfart thinking it was a 90mm in the 80s / 90s