Army Rumour Service

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

CGS:upgrading challenger and warrior.

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer


Don't worry, its a 'compact' turret...

It's often said there are no new ideas.
We had them in Minden in the mid-80s - they weren't compact then either! We also had Mk1 (petrol) 432s and a cheery disposition, all that was required in 11 Armd Bde as the 'Covering Force' Bde at least that's what they told us...

Pretty much a recipe for rapid, fiery and (in)glorious death...

Bde Comd was Jeremy Phipps (who was quite a character) when I was there, later of Jockey Club fame...
 
Last edited:
A friend and former colleague at Dstl (he's still there, I left for greener pastures) is conducting a comprehensive literature review of what's been written in his field over the last quarter-century.

From the reactions some evinced within his organisation, he'll need to be walking around in sackcloth and ashes, ringing a bell while intoning "Unclean! Unclean!"

Apparently it's just not done to ask "has anyone looked at this question before?"

But that’s just not innovation dear chap!

I’m all for doing things differently (see my post above ref RAC tactics), but you at least need to ask yourself why it is the way it is - and if change has been considered before.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Spartan MCT always got killed off quickly in wargames - having a light armoured vehicle sat statically a maximum of 1,950m from red tanks whilst it conducted a MCLOS engagement (which is usually a minimum of 15-20 seconds from launch) tended not to be a recipe for longevity...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Perhaps some sort of elevating arm is in order?

We had them in Minden in the mid-80s - they weren't compact then either! We also had Mk1 (petrol) 432s and a cheery disposition, all that was required in 11 Armd Bde as the 'Covering Force' Bde at least that's what they told us...

Pretty much a recipe for rapid, fiery and (in)glorious death...

Bde Comd was Jeremy Phipps (who was quite a character) when I was there, later of Jockey Club fame...

There's always someone complaining... Fine now you get this:
 
But that’s just not innovation dear chap!

I’m all for doing things differently (see my post above ref RAC tactics), but you at least need to ask yourself why it is the way it is - and if change has been considered before.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Alternatively, just use a longer-range missile with fire&forget - and preferably BLOS - capability...

All of this stuff exists now - and doesn’t have to be the bloody Brimstone that Ellwood seems so obsessed with!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Spartan MCT always got killed off quickly in wargames - having a light armoured vehicle sat statically a maximum of 1,950m from red tanks whilst it conducted a MCLOS engagement (which is usually a minimum of 15-20 seconds from launch) tended not to be a recipe for longevity...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Does that not then support having dismounted Javelin teams rather than Ares with Javelin turret - (Not withstanding that a striker replacement would be better
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
Does that not then support having dismounted Javelin teams rather than Ares with Javelin turret - (Not withstanding that a striker replacement would be better

If you can see and smite a hull-down Spartan MCT, how well will squishy dismounts with similar engagement range survive?

The one thing in their favour is Javelin being fire-and-forget - on the other hand it's spending a whole exposed before firing while you're getting the targetting box shrunk down onto your selected victim, not good against enemy armour with thermal sights and a fondness for 125mm HE-FRAG ammunition...
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
If you can see and smite a hull-down Spartan MCT, how well will squishy dismounts with similar engagement range survive?

The one thing in their favour is Javelin being fire-and-forget - on the other hand it's spending a whole exposed before firing while you're getting the targetting box shrunk down onto your selected victim, not good against enemy armour with thermal sights and a fondness for 125mm HE-FRAG ammunition...
One can see why a certain person's obsession with Brimstone has come about.

Though why Brimstone and not lightly armoured Javelin - on account of the infantry already use Javelin...
 
If you can see and smite a hull-down Spartan MCT, how well will squishy dismounts with similar engagement range survive?

The one thing in their favour is Javelin being fire-and-forget - on the other hand it's spending a whole exposed before firing while you're getting the targetting box shrunk down onto your selected victim, not good against enemy armour with thermal sights and a fondness for 125mm HE-FRAG ammunition...

One can see why a certain person's obsession with Brimstone has come about.

Though why Brimstone and not lightly armoured Javelin - on account of the infantry already use Javelin...

To be fair, Javelin has a much greater range than Milan when coupled to vehicle sights - almost double in fact - and if you use the new ‘G’ model, you don’t have that awkward seeker cool-down time.

I think there’s a role for integrated Javelin-type missiles on turreted vehicles as a quick response to a fleeting target that can’t be engaged by MBT - however, I think there’s also a need for a much longer-ranged capability like Brimstone, Hellfire or JAGM on specialist ATk platforms.

Layered capabilities - it’ll never catch on...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
.,,5 guys living off a spartan was emotional.

View attachment 513874

When I was at Bovvy we were shown the user manual for Spartan.

Designed to carry 7: a crew of 3 plus a fire team of dismounts.

The pictures showed them all sitting to attention in the back in their Mk 4 helmets and wearing 58 pattern CEFO, their large packs slung behind them.

Couldn’t fit a fag paper between them of course.

I found it a bit cramped with a sapper recce team of 3.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
One can see why a certain person's obsession with Brimstone has come about.

Though why Brimstone and not lightly armoured Javelin - on account of the infantry already use Javelin...

Brimstone is not only fire-and-forget with much longer range,, but can do autonomous search and engagement - so, in theory you could volley Brimstone from defilade along the FLOT (well, along the enemy's side of it) with the missiles autonomously seeking, prioritising and engaging targets - the original intent of Staff Requirement (Air) 1238, where aircraft could lob Brimstone at enemy tank formations from a safe(r) standoff range rather than having to overfly them with BL755, turning "sorties per tank killed" into "tanks killed per sortie".

Or, send salvoes after an identified enemy armour concentration, again with rather more range and no line-of-sight issues (probably safer if there's a risk the forces are intermixing).

Of course that was all in the "total war" days back when tactical nuclear weapons were the next step for stopping massed enemy armour if the conventional weapons failed, and the safety case for lobbing an autonomous missile that's relying on a 94GHz radar and some smart algorithms to pick its target might be harder to make in these less permissive days of "low collateral" and "lawfare". Direct fire Brimstone would probably need to be DMSB with laser designation, which is back to longer exposure while 'someone' guides it in.

If you're just reading the brochures and Wikipedia it's an attractive option for a "Striker Plus" overwatch capability. Brimstone's good kit but it's no more the complete, total answer than - say - Exactor is, and "stick Brimstone on random vehicles" isn't a practical solution outside of (relatively basic) wargames.
 
Brimstone is not only fire-and-forget with much longer range,, but can do autonomous search and engagement - so, in theory you could volley Brimstone from defilade along the FLOT (well, along the enemy's side of it) with the missiles autonomously seeking, prioritising and engaging targets - the original intent of Staff Requirement (Air) 1238, where aircraft could lob Brimstone at enemy tank formations from a safe(r) standoff range rather than having to overfly them with BL755, turning "sorties per tank killed" into "tanks killed per sortie".

Or, send salvoes after an identified enemy armour concentration, again with rather more range and no line-of-sight issues (probably safer if there's a risk the forces are intermixing).

Of course that was all in the "total war" days back when tactical nuclear weapons were the next step for stopping massed enemy armour if the conventional weapons failed, and the safety case for lobbing an autonomous missile that's relying on a 94GHz radar and some smart algorithms to pick its target might be harder to make in these less permissive days of "low collateral" and "lawfare". Direct fire Brimstone would probably need to be DMSB with laser designation, which is back to longer exposure while 'someone' guides it in.

If you're just reading the brochures and Wikipedia it's an attractive option for a "Striker Plus" overwatch capability. Brimstone's good kit but it's no more the complete, total answer than - say - Exactor is, and "stick Brimstone on random vehicles" isn't a practical solution outside of (relatively basic) wargames.

If you’re going to stick with ‘direct fire, line-of-sight’ only, then you might as well just buy SAL-only Hellfire-R at *% of the cost...

You can also fire a SAL missile in BLOS mode - you just need someone else to designate it and send you their laser-code.

Of course, if you really insist on eyeballing the target you’re going to kill, your practical LOS range in most circumstances won’t be much more than a Javelin with a tailwind...






* that would be an ecumenical number.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
If you’re going to stick with ‘direct fire, line-of-sight’ only, then you might as well just buy SAL-only Hellfire-R at *% of the cost...

You can also fire a SAL missile in BLOS mode - you just need someone else to designate it and send you their laser-code.

Of course, if you really insist on eyeballing the target you’re going to kill, your practical LOS range in most circumstances won’t be much more than a Javelin with a tailwind...






* that would be an ecumenical number.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's a numbers game in so many ways, cost, weight, range, PK and...........UK jobs.
 
When I was at Bovvy we were shown the user manual for Spartan.

Designed to carry 7: a crew of 3 plus a fire team of dismounts.

The pictures showed them all sitting to attention in the back in their Mk 4 helmets and wearing 58 pattern CEFO, their large packs slung behind them.

Couldn’t fit a fag paper between them of course.

I found it a bit cramped with a sapper recce team of 3.

Pfft, did you know you can fit ten men into a FV432 with a Fox turret on?

As you can see, they're not even trying. You can fit another couple of blokes in there, under the seats, lying down.

And while searching for the above image I found this, as we have a bunch of Staff types here, they might find it interesting (dull as dishwater to me though).
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
Pfft, did you know you can fit ten men into a FV432 with a Fox turret on?

As you can see, they're not even trying. You can fit another couple of blokes in there, under the seats, lying down.

And while searching for the above image I found this, as we have a bunch of Staff types here, they might find it interesting (dull as dishwater to me though).
Good grief - if only it was that simple these days...

BTW all 'Staff types' are also 'Regimental types' too, after all this is the British, not the German, Army....

Of course whether that is the most appropriate way of doing business I couldn't possibly say.
 

Cynical

LE
Book Reviewer
Oh God - another trip down memory lane.

If you are going to get into a direct fire battle with MBT and you are not in an MBT yourself (pref CR with lots of lovely Chobham) you are likely to die - unless you somehow have a concealed firing position and are shooting into their rears (note plural, MBT don't travel alone).

The solution therefore is to use indirect fire. Options include:
  1. Using a laser designator that you (reluctantly) squirt once you've heard "Copperhead* Shot 25" OR
  2. (if you have confidence that the shooter can tell the difference between your recce vehicle and the incoming tanks) get him to fire something like a fibre optic guided mortar round (remember that concept) OR
  3. (If you really trust the guys who wrote the AI code, having noted that they were the cheapest) get the shooter to let rip with fire and forget OR
  4. Explain to 0A that there's a bunch of panzers heading his way and perhaps he can play phone a freind with CR2 sqn or some AH-64, assuing him that you'll keep looking for more enemy for as long as you live.
Wrote a short paper on this in late 1980s (following yet another 7 Bde commander with zero understanding of armour telling us that fighting for information was a good plan). Lost in the mists of time and the Army Review Editor's in-box.
 
He was a RGJ cadetship officer when I vaguely knew him at university (after he ended up involved in a military coup at the Loughborough Student's Union where we were both EMUOTC...) who, I think, topped out at captain (same lofty rank of OF2 I've comfortably ceilinged at, albeit in the reserves). Decent fellow, but not exactly a background to give a deep expertise in armoured warfare or vehicle design.

It's surprising how shallow professional knowledge can be outside peoples' stovepipes - for warships I knew Sea Dart and Sea Wolf backwards, but was vaguely aware there were some big loud spinny things down low in the ship that drank F76 and pushed us around as long as the MEO conducted the proper rituals... so I could talk the committee's ears off about air defence with confidence, but would stumble to do more than repeat what I've learned from folk like @supermatelot about marine engineering.


He does need to be better briefed if he's going to do this sort of thing and not look unwise...
Think you have me mistaken mate, I was AAW / radar. I can wax lyrical about 967 auto tracking on seawolf but- my marine engineering knowledge extends little beyond a bit of HQ1 watchkeeping.
 
Pfft, did you know you can fit ten men into a FV432 with a Fox turret on?

As you can see, they're not even trying. You can fit another couple of blokes in there, under the seats, lying down.

And while searching for the above image I found this, as we have a bunch of Staff types here, they might find it interesting (dull as dishwater to me though).

Back in the ‘good old days’, when integration just meant deciding what type of clearance/interference fit was required, and what size bolts you needed...

Then along came electronics, databuses and software to make our lives easier!


To be fair, it is acknowledged that following a GVA-based architecture with digital turret services will involve a lot of pain at the start of the project - but (in theory) you’re paid back through-life with reduced complexity (and cost) for later spiral integrations (assuming you can afford any).




There’s also the small matter of MoD’s approach to safety cases of course, which is now more Judge Dredd than Fred Dibnah...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Again no one is just talking about bolting seats into an Ajax (which I’ve now read has 1).

a new variant of the Ajax family designed for use an IFV (not an Ajax modified)
 
Again no one is just talking about bolting seats into an Ajax (which I’ve now read has 1).

a new variant of the Ajax family designed for use an IFV (not an Ajax modified)

And as others have said repeatedly, it won’t work unless you make modifications so significant, you’d be better off starting with another vehicle - preferably an unadulterated ASCOD or CV90.

The best you could probably hope for is an ARES PMRS with an unmanned turret/RWS - and that’s a vehicle designed to take 4 in the back (maybe 6 at a squeeze).

If the problem is that we supposedly don’t have enough money for AJAX and Warrior CSP, then this certainly isn’t the answer, as you’d be paying for a shed load more NRE to develop that vehicle, on top of a higher unit cost than Warrior CSP...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

New Posts

Latest Threads

Top