CGS:upgrading challenger and warrior.

Just read all the replies, Christ, for educated folks, you lot are dim. Remind the world what happened to the Iraqi airforce when asked for a return match in GW2?

So,@History_Man might have a point about lack of AD systems, however, when you over match the OPFOR, that's not really a problem, is it? Now, contrast the BritMil situation.

Overmatch the OPFOR?

Really?

You won't have a single usable airbase within 300 miles of any Russian turf within minutes of the start of festivities.

So, you're going to need to think of flying from Germany.....
I'm kind of guessing they are going to sit that one out.

And you wont be fighting piss poorly trained Iraqis in ancient MIG's over the Baltics.
 
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Overmatch the OPFOR?

Really?

You won't have a single usable airbase within 300 miles one any Russian turf within minutes of the start of festivities.

So, you're going to need to think flying from Germany?
I'm kind of guessing they are going to sit that one out.

And you wont be fighting piss poorly trained Iraqis in ancient MIG's over the Baltics.
Did you get excited typing that?
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
Overmatch the OPFOR?

Really?

You won't have a single usable airbase within 300 miles of any Russian turf within minutes of the start of festivities.
Oh, of course. Because hitting an airfield with one 1,000lb warhead will close it to all air traffic forever.

1579650075809.png


We never considered that runways might be vulnerable, and so didn't develop aircraft able to take off and land on the short pieces of usable surface that might remain after hostile attacks. Nor has anyone ever heard of something called a Hardened Aircraft Shelter, an idea I intend to patent and retire on the royalties from.

Oh, you're going to fire lots of weapons to do so much damage the base is completely out of action for a couple of days. And conduct follow-up strikes to stop repairs. At all the airbases. With the bottomless magazine of TBMs you have because, when you loaded "Modern Warfare Simulator", you selected "Unlimited Munitions" and "Instant Reloads"?

There's a real threat there, it's neither ignored nor invincible. Been there, done that, Red Teamed the arguments, still got the mandatory-purchase coffee cup. (Stavanger's surprisingly pleasant in October, though good colleages helped a lot)

Now, I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal-food-trough wiper! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries! Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
 
Bit of a bugger neither of the NATO air bases in the Baltic’s have anything more ‘hardened’ than a pop up canvas hanger.

we can war game for anything, alas, in the real world, the Emperor has no clothes and would be a total loss in the first strike from long rocket artillery fitted with cluster and FAE warheads,
 
Just read all the replies, Christ, for educated folks, you lot are dim. Remind the world what happened to the Iraqi airforce when asked for a return match in GW2?

So,@History_Man might have a point about lack of AD systems, however, when you over match the OPFOR, that's not really a problem, is it? Now, contrast the BritMil situation.
There are some big assumptions being made right there...
 
Bit of a bugger neither of the NATO air bases in the Baltic’s have anything more ‘hardened’ than a pop up canvas hanger.

we can war game for anything, alas, in the real world, the Emperor has no clothes and would be a total loss in the first strike from long rocket artillery fitted with cluster and FAE warheads,
There is a HAS complex at Lielvarde AB in Latvia - I have seen it with my own eyes - but I highly doubt that it remains serviceable.
 
Par example? ~The defences around Hmeymim air base in Syria

  • Pantsir (SS-22 Greyhound) gun/missile
  • SA-8 Gecko
  • SA-3 Goa
  • SA-17
  • S-200
  • S-400 (Every NATO pilots favourite nightmare)
And those air defences did very well against a bunch of Israeli F-16's hitting nearby targets. If memory serves their shoot down score was one very high tech Russian electronic spy plane?

Anyway back to IAV and the like. These slides got posted up from the conference, which maybe of interest.




Slide 19 is of interest. 6" top attack EFP.
 
There is a HAS complex at Lielvarde AB in Latvia - I have seen it with my own eyes - but I highly doubt that it remains serviceable.
Only a few HAS, the Baltic chaps have been diligently turning their former hardened Russian airbases into very soft ones, see Siaulai, only a handful left out of 50 odd, and the airfield outfield open to the public for things like off-road racing,. In practice, NATO has 3 air bases in the Baltic’s, hardly a major tactical problem for the Russians. But I’m sure the requisite number of armoured bulldozers and runway construction equipment required to fix runways cratered and littered with rocket delivered mines like confetti are pre positioned.

meanwhile, at Lielvarde, NATO does things like make their Russian counterparts shake their heads in disbelief with its idea of a Headquarters deployment.

69B111AA-6AD5-49CC-8C95-D59EF97C4389.jpeg


NATO - it doesn't train serious.
 
As that has a civilian car park in shot, I think we can safely conclude it's just an office to go to, and not a deployed HQ.
nope, it was super cereal

 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
Bit of a bugger neither of the NATO air bases in the Baltic’s have anything more ‘hardened’ than a pop up canvas hanger.
Bit of a bugger that "within 300 miles" covers an awful lot more, of rather less squishy, targets than "the Baltics".

Is geography another of those skills you've yet to acquire?

we can war game for anything, alas, in the real world, the Emperor has no clothes and would be a total loss in the first strike from long rocket artillery fitted with cluster and FAE warheads,
Because these are so effective at cutting runways? And they can be delivered in the required quantity, with the necessary accuracy, to every potential target? Because the Bad People have enabled "INFINITE MUNITIONS", and "INSTANT RELOAD" in the 'game difficulty' menu, and typed 'IDDQD' at the console prompt?

As so often happens, this is not a new problem, despite snake-oil salesmen trying to sell column inches on the idea that the sky is suddenly falling down.

If only there was any evidence that anyone had ever thought about this sort of problem, twenty years or more ago... they could have written a paper like Airbase Vulnerability to Conventional Cruise-Missile and Ballistic-Missile Attacks.

But they didn't, which is why this is an entirely new and unforeseen issue...
 
nope, it was super cereal

I'm guessing you need to have exercise types explained to you?
There's accounts on ARRSE of Radio operators on exercise when over the radio comes the chemical attack warning. They then quickly nip to the tent next door and stick their heads in to see if everyone is wearing their Respirator. the Tent next door was their higher command station "several miles" away.
If memory serves, in the good old days it used to be called an "Exercise with out troops" or some such.

Not every exercise requires you to be all tactical out in the mud, which adds quite a lot to the cost I suspect, and would likely irritate the locals.
 
I'm guessing you need to have exercise types explained to you?
There's accounts on ARRSE of Radio operators on exercise when over the radio comes the chemical attack warning. They then quickly nip to the tent next door and stick their heads in to see if everyone is wearing their Respirator. the Tent next door was their higher command station "several miles" away.
If memory serves, in the good old days it used to be called an "Exercise with out troops" or some such.

Not every exercise requires you to be all tactical out in the mud, which adds quite a lot to the cost I suspect, and would likely irritate the locals.

Train like you mean it or you ain't really training.

ANY C2 infrastructure in the Baltics would have to be very widely dispersed, and maintain scrupulous EMCOM - the perfidious Russians have dedicated ELINT Regiments with their own organic means of delivering point and mass destruction to look for them..
Disperal in an of itself raises problems that can't be factored in by pretending in a car park.


But that's by the bye… while Armchair Generals may dream of facing down Ivan in the Baltic, the realists know full well, NATO would loose, and loose fast if Ivan fancied an away day to the Baltic coast.
Everything we do in the Baltics is not very convincing Kabuki theatre to reassure the natives.
 
“HQ ARRC would actually deploy its main CP into the Baltic states themselves in a major war fighting operation to liberate them”





You realise that large HQs routinely disperse, with the majority of the enabling roles in a CP so far back, they send their laundry forward?

Of course you did.


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“HQ ARRC would actually deploy its main CP into the Baltic states themselves in a major war fighting operation to liberate them”





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Aww c'mon. All them years attending courses, briefings, lectures, planning, prep, putting it into practice running around in the ulu on ex and ops, what do you know compared with Google ?
 
The forces required just to stop a 'Rapid overrunning' of the Baltics States were estimated by the US as
4 Mech Infantry Brigades
3 Armoured Brigades
Plus the required quantity of support arms such as artillery and fast air.

Well, still looking for a single permanently based Brigade

Its bluff, and we keep just enough forces to play the bluffing game, but no so many it would be hard to all bug out at Warp Factor 8 through the Sulwaki Gap to Poland if the bluff was called.
 

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