CGS:upgrading challenger and warrior.

AJAX is as big and as noisy or noisier as a proper full sized MBT so will attract the attention of the people it’s trying to find.
While I'm happy to bow to your experience in this, is it really loud enough for them to hear over the sound of their own engine from inside an armoured vehicle while wearing a radio headset in the middle of the famously quiet environment of an all arms battle?
 
We’re not talking about major river crossing operations, we’re talking about unsuitable for tanks bridges over minor rivers and streams. There are a couple of bridges over minor streams near me with quite low limits, but I could drive across the water in my 4x4.

But we digress, we can’t assume the opposition will decline from their traditional habit of fighting for information using proper tanks because it doesn’t fit with our PPT presentations.

CVR(T) was very small, and very quiet and could sneak about in the bushes, AJAX is as big and as noisy or noisier as a proper full sized MBT so will attract the attention of the people it’s trying to find. Then it’s trading 125mm sabot vs 40mm sabot time, and I know which one my monies on - abd it’s not the one with armour resistant at best to 30mm AP rounds
Inregards to the picture you posted. As soon as an MBT is put across or under a body of water, It becomes a major operation for all involved.
 
Inregards to the picture you posted. As soon as an MBT is put across or under a body of water, It becomes a major operation for all involved.
If it survives the river bed ( not always an assumption one can make, oops, bugger.... ) its also not very combat ready for a bit as everyone has to deprep the fording kit. In the meantime, chappy with something portable and nasty is lining up on the beast as it claws its way up riverbank and then gives it the good news.
 
We’re not talking about major river crossing operations, we’re talking about unsuitable for tanks bridges over minor rivers and streams. There are a couple of bridges over minor streams near me with quite low limits, but I could drive across the water in my 4x4.

But we digress, we can’t assume the opposition will decline from their traditional habit of fighting for information using proper tanks because it doesn’t fit with our PPT presentations.

CVR(T) was very small, and very quiet and could sneak about in the bushes, AJAX is as big and as noisy or noisier as a proper full sized MBT so will attract the attention of the people it’s trying to find. Then it’s trading 125mm sabot vs 40mm sabot time, and I know which one my monies on - abd it’s not the one with armour resistant at best to 30mm AP rounds
And again you display your thorough knowledge of the subject you choose to discuss.
 
If it survives the river bed ( not always an assumption one can make, oops, bugger.... ) its also not very combat ready for a bit as everyone has to deprep the fording kit. In the meantime, chappy with something portable and nasty is lining up on the beast as it claws its way up riverbank and then gives it the good news.
You just need to send your recce forces out ahead of the tanks to find suitable fords. With their smaller and lighter vehicles they can sneak about without being seen and find where it is safe for the tanks to cross.

How did we get to this point again? :?
 
If it survives the river bed ( not always an assumption one can make, oops, bugger.... ) its also not very combat ready for a bit as everyone has to deprep the fording kit. In the meantime, chappy with something portable and nasty is lining up on the beast as it claws its way up riverbank and then gives it the good news.
Yeah, its all good to drag out and show off at demonstrations but in practical use not so much.

I see it possibly useful in defense where you could have pre recce'd crossing points with hard/stone bases and entry exit points all with a dems plan in place. It would mean your forces aren't completely tied to bridges/ferry point and have options for maneuver or withdrawal. Also any crossing would be under their own guns/fires. Things like a few strategically constructed "boat ramps" in peacetime around stone or rock based bodies of water would be useful.

Back on the CR2, is there much difference in turret ring size to the likes of the Leo 2? If the smooth bore is seriously getting looked at by the MOD, have any of the bidders looked at offering a straight turret swap like the French and Germans displayed with the Leo 2 hull and Leclerc turret? No necessarily saying with one of their turrets but starting with more of a clean slate rather than trying to work around given constraints.
 
Take a look at the history of formation recce in the British Army 1939-1945, or more recently, the evolution of US recce at unit and formation level.
The American evolution hasn't been under peer armoured combat conditions so doesn't met criteria 2/3. I'm aware of the UK armoured divisions change through 39-45, though this didn't apply to the rest of the army that did most of the fighting. What I've never been able to find is the evidence of the light recce getting badly shot up. If your paper has this I'd be very interested to read it.
I suspect that the issue, which I believe repeated during Desert Storm, was that the recce were unable to keep up with the tanks in desert conditions for mobility reasons and it became normal for one squadron of each tank regiment to do the recce role. This lead to changes before Normandy and in Italy. Whether those change were effective when most of the armoured combat in these two campaigns was by the infantry divisions in association with independent armoured brigades, neither of whom use tanks in recce formations, is I think difficult to determine.
 
Recce is a craft and practioners have unmpteen factors to consider.
I think it's also worth bearing in mind it's a craft with a high casualty profile. Whoever, however you first contact the enemy, you are more likely to take casualties than those who come along armed with the knowledge of what's out there.
 
Oh, an optimist!
Getting in is always obtainable, getting out, now that's the tricky bit!
Which is one of the reasons we had reccy vehs on both sides of the Weser when we used to do it.

I'm also glad they eventually took floatation screens off CVR(T) as they were pretty useless once the skirt had been mangled after hitting trees etc, plus those god awful propulsion units that were bolted on were a nightmare (only fitted them once, not for swimming though, just as part of seeing how to prepare one for swimming).

http://s3.amazonaws.com/hmvforum/monthly_2008_08/propellers.jpg.339aa175c3b9f65855408691d98076dd.jpg
 
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