CCF SAAIs

#1
Does such a beast exist and what course do they pass?

I've been asked to run a range for my old school CCF. I have got hold of a copy of Pam 21C and it clearly states that WHTs have to be done by a current and competent SAAI (no real surprise there). However I'm told by the CCF that their cadets have been tested on their WHT by their officers (teachers).

I know things are different in the Cadets but I've never known an Officer SAAI outside SASC. Can CCF officers qualify as SAAI and if so how? I've looked on the CTC Frimly website and note that it specifically says the CCF basic course does not qualify to take WHTs

Please note I'm talking CCF not ACF.
 
#2
WHAAAA Dectector on!

CCF officers do the same courses as ACF. They must pass the AIs course before teaching and testing....
 
#3
If they are a CCF they will have some sort of Cadet Training Team assistance, they can conduct the wht the cadets need prior to shooting.
The wht`s are to be done every 6 months.
 
#4
clanker said:
If they are a CCF they will have some sort of Cadet Training Team assistance, they can conduct the wht the cadets need prior to shooting.
The wht`s are to be done every 6 months.
Agreed.

However, they can still do the AIs course.
 
#5
Sorry if I'm being obtuse but I haven't been in the cadets for a matter of decades (in fact my weapon then was a Lee Enfield No 4).

walting_matilda said:
WHAAAA Dectector on!

CCF officers do the same courses as ACF. They must pass the AIs course before teaching and testing....
1. If they do the same courses what is this:

http://www.armycadets.com/county/fr...ark/pages/courses/ccf-basic-course/index.aspx

2. Does this AI's course qualify one as an SAAI (because if it doesn't they clearly cannot run a WHT, ref Pam 21C)?

clanker said:
If they are a CCF they will have some sort of Cadet Training Team assistance, they can conduct the wht the cadets need prior to shooting.
The wht`s are to be done every 6 months.
My point is that I'm being told that the WHTs have been done by the teachers NOT the CTT - hence my query. I don't want to get too pointed with the old dear who runs the CCF unnecessarily but would like to know where I stand.
 
#6
Bailey said:
Sorry if I'm being obtuse but I haven't been in the cadets for a matter of decades (in fact my weapon then was a Lee Enfield No 4).

walting_matilda said:
WHAAAA Dectector on!

CCF officers do the same courses as ACF. They must pass the AIs course before teaching and testing....
1. If they do the same courses what is this:

http://www.armycadets.com/county/fr...ark/pages/courses/ccf-basic-course/index.aspx

2. Does this AI's course qualify one as an SAAI (because if it doesn't they clearly cannot run a WHT, ref Pam 21C)?

clanker said:
If they are a CCF they will have some sort of Cadet Training Team assistance, they can conduct the wht the cadets need prior to shooting.
The wht`s are to be done every 6 months.
My point is that I'm being told that the WHTs have been done by the teachers NOT the CTT - hence my query. I don't want to get too pointed with the old dear who runs the CCF unnecessarily but would like to know where I stand.
Mate, all you need to know is that the AI Course does qualify you to run WHTs. If your CTT chap is SAA then he can also run WHTS. Im not sure how much more simple I can make it.
 
#7
walting_matilda said:
Bailey said:
Sorry if I'm being obtuse but I haven't been in the cadets for a matter of decades (in fact my weapon then was a Lee Enfield No 4).

walting_matilda said:
WHAAAA Dectector on!

CCF officers do the same courses as ACF. They must pass the AIs course before teaching and testing....
1. If they do the same courses what is this:

http://www.armycadets.com/county/fr...ark/pages/courses/ccf-basic-course/index.aspx

2. Does this AI's course qualify one as an SAAI (because if it doesn't they clearly cannot run a WHT, ref Pam 21C)?

clanker said:
If they are a CCF they will have some sort of Cadet Training Team assistance, they can conduct the wht the cadets need prior to shooting.
The wht`s are to be done every 6 months.
My point is that I'm being told that the WHTs have been done by the teachers NOT the CTT - hence my query. I don't want to get too pointed with the old dear who runs the CCF unnecessarily but would like to know where I stand.
Mate, all you need to know is that the AI Course does qualify you to run WHTs. If your CTT chap is SAA then he can also run WHTS. Im not sure how much more simple I can make it.
Are you serious? So regular/TA troops who do a Combat Marksmanship Coaching Course can no longer take WHTs for trained soldiers, but Cadet Instructors can instruct kids with no where near the depth of training from a generic AI course on weapon handling? Smells like BS in my honest opinon.

Only SAA Instructors (not CMCQ, not RMQ etc) can instruct the correct use and drills of specific firearms within the Army or otherwise within the British forces to trained soldiers. Why, if this is true, are cadet organisations authorising under-qualified instructors to train minors when the reverse is that trained adult soldiers using a weapon system that is their bread and butter require WHTs to be supervised and signed off by Brecon SAA Course instructors?

If this is true, it's a fcuking huge safety gap in the training process of minors. I have kids, and would love them to get involved in the cadets. Being made aware that they may be trained in weapon handling by adult instructors, who have NOT spent even a full 2 weeks concentrating on weapon systems, and more leadership exercies with barrels and ropes does not exacty fill me with confidence, as I know what an Infantry Bn requires of it's trainers prior to training soldiers on systems.

EDIT: I do indeed understand that there's an addition of 1 to 1 coaching with cadets and that they are instructed to raise their hand in the event of any stoppage. However, in my experience as a cadet, I was clearing my own stoppages and frankly, the AIs I have worked with as a training team in the past really did not have the first idea what they were talking about.
 
#8
Gaz3447 said:
[

[Are you serious? So regular/TA troops who do a Combat Marksmanship Coaching Course can no longer take WHTs for trained soldiers, but Cadet Instructors can instruct kids with no where near the depth of training from a generic AI course on weapon handling? Smells like BS in my honest opinon.
Its exactly right. Cadet AIs do get the qual from a 1 week course to take SAA lessons and WHT. Its open to both ACF and CCF Adults - but few CCF have done it. Many CCFs get around the instructional bit by running "Revision" but have to call in CTT Regular SAA to take formal WHT. Matters are not helped by the CTTs having a shortage of SAA qual pers due to an inability to get places on the Regular courses. Currently a major topic of conversation at LAND & Frimley.
 
#9
Thanks for your reply. Please understand I posted as a dad with not a huge understanding of how cadet quals work, but out of current personal 'challenges' in ensuring qualified staff are available for my own unit's impending deployment.

I am judging by your tone sal, that you are in the same mindframe as me, in terms of asking a serious question of liability and safety/trust in the instructors? I know there's the common bickering of Reg/TA/Cadet quals/commissions etc, but frankly I'm glad of your input even if I don't know if you're a reg/TA/AI forgive me if I don't trawl your post history, I find it condescending to people doing so, other than for pure personal interest).

It's said that people learn by their mistakes; quite frankly, I would not take the risk of either of my sons being the 'mistake' where weapons are concerned.

I want to point out that in my dealings as an NCO, I have dealt with cadet AIs ranging from the absultely fantastic (the right balance of "we know we can do this safely to add to the emmersion"/"we can't actually do that because we aren't happy with our cover", educated and calculated risk assessment) to the completely mundane and dangerous, or utter by the book killjoys that leaves the kids feeling unaccomplished.

To me though, isn't there a safety issue here when you compare the level of your student (arguably one of the biggest points other than forms/protocol on SAA, and one of the forefront considerations as ANY instructor), with what cadet and TA/Reg personnel are required to be trained to? I've said before I realise cadets aren't required to be TTFT trained or the ability to train to near this standard, to exist, but you still are required to qualify to a certain degree to enable instruction.

To simply take/sign off WHTs for an IW for regualr/TA soldiers, you need to be SAA qual'd from Brecon (all adults). But a cadet instructor can do a week with no prior mil/weapon handling background and sign off/pass minors/kids as safe to handle live firearms of the same calibre as trained soldiers (IW)? That's a HUGE safety gap right there.

GREY AREA - Who signs off the cadet AIs as current? I may be guessing the CTT and have answered my own question.

Again, my basis for my questions posed are a hybrid of infantry NCO/dad, genuinely interested in the regs of this discussion. I will however say that stuff like this, because I have the insight to pose such a question, would directly affect my decision as a father to allow my kids to join such an organisation. We all come up against paper(work) walls in regards to safety regs. If an Infantry unit cannot bypass them, why have the cadet forces got such seemingly lax holes in their regs?
 
#10
saladin said:
Gaz3447 said:
[

[Are you serious? So regular/TA troops who do a Combat Marksmanship Coaching Course can no longer take WHTs for trained soldiers, but Cadet Instructors can instruct kids with no where near the depth of training from a generic AI course on weapon handling? Smells like BS in my honest opinon.
Its exactly right. Cadet AIs do get the qual from a 1 week course to take SAA lessons and WHT. Its open to both ACF and CCF Adults - but few CCF have done it. Many CCFs get around the instructional bit by running "Revision" but have to call in CTT Regular SAA to take formal WHT. Matters are not helped by the CTTs having a shortage of SAA qual pers due to an inability to get places on the Regular courses. Currently a major topic of conversation at LAND & Frimley.

The SASC Instructors at Frimley ensure that the standards are met and safety is paramount. As a member of the CCF I have also completed the AIs course and all other courses within my remit. This course has been modified recently (which I attended) and concentrates more on the cadet weaponj.. Do you hva e a course list of what the two week course list at brecon covers. Probably a lot more than a cadet will ever use.

ALL range qualifications are taught and tested by SASC instructors. There is no "cadet on cadet" instruction.

If you have concerns about teaching practices and safety at Frimley then please speak to the SASC Capt there and I am sure he will take you through it.
 
#11
Thank you all. Since I'm pretty certain none of the teachers will have done the AIs course and I can not provide 1 on 1 coaching it looks like a polite decline is my only option.
 
#12
As wm said CCF staff may attend an AI's course which is the only avenue for them to take to be qualified to conduct WHT's .
Unfortunatley this would mean some teachers accepting that they do need to be taught and are not above learning

notice I have said some teachers !
 
#13
static-line-pimp said:
As wm said CCF staff may attend an AI's course which is the only avenue for them to take to be qualified to conduct WHT's .
Unfortunatley this would mean some teachers accepting that they do need to be taught and are not above learning

notice I have said some teachers !
The good thing is the majority of the officers I know like learning something new rather than constantly teaching and testing.

Teachers are qualified to do what they do best. However, they do not have the knowledge of the subject matter. I feel that it is the responsibility of Frimley to give them that. I for one am a rubbish student!!!!
 
#14
walting_matilda said:
saladin said:
Gaz3447 said:
[

[Are you serious? So regular/TA troops who do a Combat Marksmanship Coaching Course can no longer take WHTs for trained soldiers, but Cadet Instructors can instruct kids with no where near the depth of training from a generic AI course on weapon handling? Smells like BS in my honest opinon.
Its exactly right. Cadet AIs do get the qual from a 1 week course to take SAA lessons and WHT. Its open to both ACF and CCF Adults - but few CCF have done it. Many CCFs get around the instructional bit by running "Revision" but have to call in CTT Regular SAA to take formal WHT. Matters are not helped by the CTTs having a shortage of SAA qual pers due to an inability to get places on the Regular courses. Currently a major topic of conversation at LAND & Frimley.

The SASC Instructors at Frimley ensure that the standards are met and safety is paramount. As a member of the CCF I have also completed the AIs course and all other courses within my remit. This course has been modified recently (which I attended) and concentrates more on the cadet weaponj.. Do you hva e a course list of what the two week course list at brecon covers. Probably a lot more than a cadet will ever use.

ALL range qualifications are taught and tested by SASC instructors. There is no "cadet on cadet" instruction.

If you have concerns about teaching practices and safety at Frimley then please speak to the SASC Capt there and I am sure he will take you through it.
I don't suppose you have a name and phone no or email (DII or Civi) for said SASC Capt - apparently the school SSI has told the CCF officers that he has done a 'Train the Trainer Course' and is thus empowered to grant any of them permission to take WHTs!

Read Pam 21C as advice from me doesn't seem to be having the that impact I would have expected.
 
#15
Bailey said:
I don't suppose you have a name and phone no or email (DII or Civi) for said SASC Capt - apparently the school SSI has told the CCF officers that he has done a 'Train the Trainer Course' and is thus empowered to grant any of them permission to take WHTs!

Read Pam 21C as advice from me doesn't seem to be having the that impact I would have expected.
Rather than bother the SASC bod at Frimley I'd URGENTLY contact either your local CTT or the SO3 Cadets at Bde. Both will be overjoyed to hear that news. Not.

SASC run AI course at Frimley or the Reg/TA SAA course. The only quals that count as valid for taking Cadet WHT.

Edited to add - The Contingent Commander and Headmaster should also be on your Info list if this clown continues in this vein.
 
#16
Said SASC Captain told two of our CCF officers that the TTT course allows you train but not test. When I did KGVI last year I asked the same question and he said no, 8 months later and he said you can! Without a PAM21C in front of me does it mention training only and not testing I wonder,will look on Monday!
Cadets who have been taught MOI by CTT can/could teach SAA under the supervision of a suitably qualified adult instructor, ie AI course or SAA instructor. Will check Monday about that one, it was a letter from land.
 
#17
barneyrnsm said:
Said SASC Captain told two of our CCF officers that the TTT course allows you train but not test. When I did KGVI last year I asked the same question and he said no, 8 months later and he said you can! Without a PAM21C in front of me does it mention training only and not testing I wonder,will look on Monday!
Cadets who have been taught MOI by CTT can/could teach SAA under the supervision of a suitably qualified adult instructor, ie AI course or SAA instructor. Will check Monday about that one, it was a letter from land.
I attended the Contingent Commanders course a few years back and heard it from the horse’s mouth (Frimley’s Commandant).

A question was asked about the CCF Basic course being allowed to teach and test. The Commandant said NO! This hit the CCF like a shockwave and then the question was asked about "What about the whole of the CCF and they were not expected to attend the AIs course or that any AIs courses were in the holidays?" The reply was "That only the AIs course will enable you to teach and test the new GP and the LSW........." Fact. If you would want to call the SASC Capt at Frimley (just call Frimley and ask for the Chief Instructor) then go ahead.

That said, I further enquired from SO2 CCFA that CCF Basic courses before 2007 have “grandfather right” and can teach and test the old GP and the LSW (if taught at Frimley). This means that they would have to do a conversions course run by the CTT. This is what I have been told.

I having completed all CCF courses including the new AIs course and have attended loads of briefs and meetings and feel I can speak with some authority on this.

No doubt I will get loads of messages back but please believe what I have written. However, I my experience the CTT are like “First Aid Courses” and change like the wind. This is the problem I have with cadets in general. Bollocks really.....................
 
#18
Bailey said:
walting_matilda said:
saladin said:
Gaz3447 said:
[

[Are you serious? So regular/TA troops who do a Combat Marksmanship Coaching Course can no longer take WHTs for trained soldiers, but Cadet Instructors can instruct kids with no where near the depth of training from a generic AI course on weapon handling? Smells like BS in my honest opinon.
Its exactly right. Cadet AIs do get the qual from a 1 week course to take SAA lessons and WHT. Its open to both ACF and CCF Adults - but few CCF have done it. Many CCFs get around the instructional bit by running "Revision" but have to call in CTT Regular SAA to take formal WHT. Matters are not helped by the CTTs having a shortage of SAA qual pers due to an inability to get places on the Regular courses. Currently a major topic of conversation at LAND & Frimley.

The SASC Instructors at Frimley ensure that the standards are met and safety is paramount. As a member of the CCF I have also completed the AIs course and all other courses within my remit. This course has been modified recently (which I attended) and concentrates more on the cadet weaponj.. Do you hva e a course list of what the two week course list at brecon covers. Probably a lot more than a cadet will ever use.

ALL range qualifications are taught and tested by SASC instructors. There is no "cadet on cadet" instruction.

If you have concerns about teaching practices and safety at Frimley then please speak to the SASC Capt there and I am sure he will take you through it.
I don't suppose you have a name and phone no or email (DII or Civi) for said SASC Capt - apparently the school SSI has told the CCF officers that he has done a 'Train the Trainer Course' and is thus empowered to grant any of them permission to take WHTs!

Read Pam 21C as advice from me doesn't seem to be having the that impact I would have expected.
I think you may have misunderstood.

With the new weapon having come in, all adults require 'conversion'.

This is something that one instructor per school / county needs to take the 'train the trainer' course on, so that he can then pass the knowledge onto the instructors.

Frimley-qualified instructors remain the only ones able to take WHTs, but with the new weapon in, they need to be qualified by training from a 'train the trainer' qualified person.

this may be what they were referring to, I expect.
 
#19
walting_matilda said:
barneyrnsm said:
Said SASC Captain told two of our CCF officers that the TTT course allows you train but not test. When I did KGVI last year I asked the same question and he said no, 8 months later and he said you can! Without a PAM21C in front of me does it mention training only and not testing I wonder,will look on Monday!
Cadets who have been taught MOI by CTT can/could teach SAA under the supervision of a suitably qualified adult instructor, ie AI course or SAA instructor. Will check Monday about that one, it was a letter from land.
I attended the Contingent Commanders course a few years back and heard it from the horse’s mouth (Frimley’s Commandant).

A question was asked about the CCF Basic course being allowed to teach and test. The Commandant said NO! This hit the CCF like a shockwave and then the question was asked about "What about the whole of the CCF and they were not expected to attend the AIs course or that any AIs courses were in the holidays?" The reply was "That only the AIs course will enable you to teach and test the new GP and the LSW........." Fact. If you would want to call the SASC Capt at Frimley (just call Frimley and ask for the Chief Instructor) then go ahead.

That said, I further enquired from SO2 CCFA that CCF Basic courses before 2007 have “grandfather right” and can teach and test the old GP and the LSW (if taught at Frimley). This means that they would have to do a conversions course run by the CTT. This is what I have been told.

I having completed all CCF courses including the new AIs course and have attended loads of briefs and meetings and feel I can speak with some authority on this.

No doubt I will get loads of messages back but please believe what I have written. However, I my experience the CTT are like “First Aid Courses” and change like the wind. This is the problem I have with cadets in general. balls really.....................
Sorry I did not make it clear, I was talking about the train the trainer course run by the military (regular) which was being quoted in an earlier post. The CCF basic course allows you to an exercise assistant or is it safety supervisor? Can never remember the terminology!
The Captain SASC at Frimley, in Feb this year said people that have done TTT can teach but not test weapons and yet no mention of it in PAM21C!
Ah the joys of military logic!
 
#20
barneyrnsm said:
walting_matilda said:
barneyrnsm said:
Said SASC Captain told two of our CCF officers that the TTT course allows you train but not test. When I did KGVI last year I asked the same question and he said no, 8 months later and he said you can! Without a PAM21C in front of me does it mention training only and not testing I wonder,will look on Monday!
Cadets who have been taught MOI by CTT can/could teach SAA under the supervision of a suitably qualified adult instructor, ie AI course or SAA instructor. Will check Monday about that one, it was a letter from land.
I attended the Contingent Commanders course a few years back and heard it from the horse’s mouth (Frimley’s Commandant).

A question was asked about the CCF Basic course being allowed to teach and test. The Commandant said NO! This hit the CCF like a shockwave and then the question was asked about "What about the whole of the CCF and they were not expected to attend the AIs course or that any AIs courses were in the holidays?" The reply was "That only the AIs course will enable you to teach and test the new GP and the LSW........." Fact. If you would want to call the SASC Capt at Frimley (just call Frimley and ask for the Chief Instructor) then go ahead.

That said, I further enquired from SO2 CCFA that CCF Basic courses before 2007 have “grandfather right” and can teach and test the old GP and the LSW (if taught at Frimley). This means that they would have to do a conversions course run by the CTT. This is what I have been told.

I having completed all CCF courses including the new AIs course and have attended loads of briefs and meetings and feel I can speak with some authority on this.

No doubt I will get loads of messages back but please believe what I have written. However, I my experience the CTT are like “First Aid Courses” and change like the wind. This is the problem I have with cadets in general. balls really.....................
Sorry I did not make it clear, I was talking about the train the trainer course run by the military (regular) which was being quoted in an earlier post. The CCF basic course allows you to an exercise assistant or is it safety supervisor? Can never remember the terminology!
The Captain SASC at Frimley, in Feb this year said people that have done TTT can teach but not test weapons and yet no mention of it in PAM21C!
Ah the joys of military logic!
If “Train the Trainer” courses allow adults to teach SAA until they have attended AI courses at Frimley where they can both teach and test is only a good thing as it allows more adults to be utilised more effectively in parade nights (after all we only have 26 weeks to get as much done as possible).

That said my CTT chap hasn’t even got any military qualifications so as useful as a chocolate fireguard. Please give us chaps with SAA and drill quals before they join CTT. Oh and not the chaps who have signed off or doing gardening duty!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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