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Catalan Independence? Democracy dies in Spain.

Turull, Romeva, Forcadell, Bassa and Rull imprisoned without bail.
He is also activating Find and arrest warrants for those who have gone abroad.

The Judge is going ahead with charges of rebellion which need an element of violence to make them stick.
Below I have posted an article which gives his reasons justifying the charges. I am still shaking my head over the Guardia Civil's 'passive violence' comment, but this bloke has overstepped the bounds.

Basic points which I can't swallow are that the Indep leaders knew that the police on 1 Oct would prevent the vote, so they are to blame for the violence on the street because they encouraged the people to vote.
That there was a fanatical violence inherent in the indep movement which the leaders planned to use and unleash.

Placing the blame on the victims is like saying to a woman you were raped because you wore a short skirt, but Llarena seems to be of that school.
Sure we knew they would try to stop it, but not like that.

That a judge has a vision of inherent violence which the indep leaders planned to use is only in his head, and has no bearing on reality. He sees violence whre it doesn't exist. Plus he should base his decisions on facts not suppositions, that is a judges job.

When a judge has to resort to bending definitions to allow a result for political reasons then there is no justice because they are changing their own rules.

Personally I am sickened by the way this judge has done things. He appears to be of the old Opus Dei-Sacred Unity of Spain School and is determined to make the offenders pay to the maximum. The shadow of Paco is long.

All this has done is convince me that Catalunya's future is divorced from Spain.






Article.
The Supreme Court judge Pablo Llarena is firmly convinced that the main players responsible for the Process had devised a plan to achieve the independence of Catalonia out of legal channels and were aware that acts of violence could take place on 1-O and still they encouraged the Catalans so that they went out and went to vote.

In the indictment, the instructor argues that after the events occurred on September 20 before the Ministry of Economy, when 40,000 people surrounded the building while the police were inside, they reflected the existence of "a risk that the future demonstrations will lead to instrumentalized violence to achieve independence. "

For Llarena, it is "evident" that what happened on September 20, "although it was not the reflection of a violence that was devised from the beginning as an instrument for the attainment of independence (which this resolution does not exclude). Then he allowed everyone involved in the process to represent the risk that future mobilizations could explode with episodes of harm and damage to the social group. "

The judge considers that "from the incendiary convocation" before the headquarters of the Conselleria "what happened was far from the peaceful action that was claimed in some messages." Once there, according to the judge's story, "the crowd surrounded the vehicles of the Civil Guard, which ended up devastated and destroyed, inside and outside." The weapons that were inside the cars "were at the mercy of the vandals."

In this way, he argues that mobilizing people to vote on October 1, knowing that the State Security Forces and Bodies had the judicial order to prevent the vote of 1-O "supposes, not already accept the risk of a violence clearly representable, but directly to promote a mass of citizens to overflow by force any intention of containment that may come from the State, as finally happened on the day of the vote.

Llarena believes that those accused of rebellion have been for years promoting the collective desire for independence among broad sectors of the population; they have rehearsed massive mobilizations conformed by hundreds of thousands of followers; and they have convinced the followers "that they held a legitimacy for an independence that they knew constitutionally impossible".
The instructor goes on to say that "those who made major contributions to the cupola of the event after September 20, of course, represented that the violent fanaticism of many of their followers had to be unleashed." In his opinion, the "persistence in his criminal determination" with this knowledge is proof of his "will to incorporate the use of force into the mechanism to achieve a secession that he did not want to renounce".

It also indicates that "it was decided to use the power of the mass to face a police action that they knew aimed at making the referendum impossible, so that the vote could be developed, enabling and favoring, not only that the results of the referendum allow the proclamation of independence but the Rule of Law surrendered to the violent determination of a part of the population that threatened to extend. "

Thus, for the magistrate the crime of rebellion is "fully applicable" to those who, "knowing the inescapable social outbreak that was already inherent in the facts, incorporated it into their criminal behavior and persisted in making essential contributions that would promote the illicit behavior that they deployed. "
 
@Dwarf Thanks for your very informative reports. Wish I had a mind that could retain so much relevant detail. Cracking good reports. Better than relying on MSM. Shame about the situation. Agree that the hard line has forced a situation where a split is a better option. It need not have been so but polititians.. ..
 
"Crowds of protesters in Spain's Catalonia region have clashed with police after the Supreme Court stepped up legal action against separatists.
Spain's Supreme Court ruled 25 Catalan leaders should be tried for rebellion, embezzlement or disobeying the state.
Convictions could result in up to 30 years in prison.
More than 20 people were injured as police used riot batons to keep protesters away from federal buildings in Barcelona on Friday night.
Demonstrations also took place in other parts of Catalonia."

From the BBC this morning, The problem I can see from this is Madrid now has some "violence" to use in their arguments for more arrests
 
This is a very good analysis of the current situation by Enric Juliana of the Vanguardia. He has often been critical of the way things have been handled both by Madrid, Barcelona and Brussels.
I have included a video for those Spanish speakers/understanders,don't worry it's not in Catalan.
Meanwhile I can't see a let up while PP and Cs are at each others' throats for supremacy and engaged in a serious willy-waving contest especially over Catalunya. The PP is losing the older vote over a serious neglect and disrespect of pensioners and need to recoverground somewhere.


The judge of the Supreme Court Pablo Llarena has become the main screenwriter of Spanish politics, in the absence of a real government initiative to resolve the issue of Catalonia, regardless of the judicial investigation of the events of September and October of 2017. This is the assessment of the deputy director of 'La Vanguardia', Enric Juliana, of the indictment of 25 Catalan politicians yesterday.

In his weekly video blog, Juliana believes that at this time in Spain there is no recognizable political centre of gravity, a circumstance that makes the Supreme Court's investigating judge the main scriptwriter of Spanish politics. The crisis in Catalonia, on the other hand, coincides at the moment with the resurgence of the political crisis in the Community of Madrid, for very different reasons, which these days can not be seen as a mere anecdote. Madrid and Catalunya are the two main engines of the Spanish economy, accounting for almost 40% of GDP. The prosecutions announced yesterday and the six orders of provisional detention distance the Basque Nationalist Party from the approval of the 2018 budgets, despite the evident wishes of the PNV to approve accounts that would contain a beneficial treatment for Euskadi.

La violencia, según Llarena
 
Today the investiture of Turull was suspended and the parties are making fairly predictable speeches.

I have received some interesting messages today, in them I can see that Madrid may actually achieve what they have constructed in terms of disobedience in Catalunya. When I refer to Madrid I am not referring simply to the PP but the whole power construct which includes the judiciary in this case as Llarena is transparently a supporter of Old Spain. It also includes all the parties which have acquiesed in the Judges decisions ignoring the fact that the stated violence doesn't and never has existed in fact. (Viz Juliana) Not even Podemos have raised a squeak about the manipulation of terminology and facts.

The following were sent by a man who taught me yoga and is one of the most peaceable blokes I know:

1. When injustice becomes law, rebellion becomes a duty. T. Jefferson

2. Everyone has the moral duty to disobey unjust laws. M Luther King.

3. "I have tried reading the word Català backwards" - This needs explaining, Català is the adjective Catalan in the language. Reading backwards it says 'al atac'. Into the attack.

Plus an audio talking about how throughout history Spain has simply considered that winning means destroying the opposition.

When that happens it means there is a hardening in stance of many. And I see that there were incidents last night. The Mossos had to clear people cutting the motorway and high-speed train line. In front of the Spanish Government's Delegation in Barcelona there were clashes resulting in 20 minor wounds treated as the Mossos barred the street.

I hope not but we may be seeing a backlash beginning which will give Llarena the violence he so desperately needs. Ironic in that the Catalans were so careful to maintain a peaceful profile to the Process and a Spanish judge is the one who is causing it.


"Today at easter time we are commemorating the fact that Barrabas was freed and Jesus condemned which proves beyond doubt that the judge was Spanish."
 
@Dwarf Thanks for your very informative reports. Wish I had a mind that could retain so much relevant detail. Cracking good reports. Better than relying on MSM. Shame about the situation. Agree that the hard line has forced a situation where a split is a better option. It need not have been so but polititians.. ..
Thanks for that, I was actually wondering if anyone actually read the stuff I post and if I should stop.

Do remember that while I try to keep an open perspective and include opinions I might not be 100% Ok with, I am an independence supporter, and even more so now. So obviously a coloured view.
 
Thanks for that, I was actually wondering if anyone actually read the stuff I post and if I should stop.

Do remember that while I try to keep an open perspective and include opinions I might not be 100% Ok with, I am an independence supporter, and even more so now. So obviously a coloured view.
I'm sure that many non Catalan speakers read your thread , certainly for me it continues to be a major source of information. Thanks and please keep up the good work.
 
I see that Judges for Democracy have been highly critical of Llarena's decision, so it's not just the Catalans complaining.
The Basque National Party are refusing to support the PP on the vote for the budget while this is happening.
The Swiss have point blank refused to send back people on political grounds though they say they will study the Spanish petition. Marta Rovira is in Geneva.

There is a fair amount of anger here that a Judge is marking the political path. Also that the charges have been manipulated to make them conform to his vision.

The Government have deliberately judicialised a political situation to avoid having to present a political solution. The Process was/is a political action which needed a political response.

Llarena seems to think, as does Madrid that putting the leaders of the Process in prison for up to 30 years will stop the call for Independence. It won't, it can't, it can only make people more determined. It started as a street movement, a coming together of people who suddenly found out that a lot of others wanted the same and that maybe in a Democratic Spain and Europe it could happen. Well we have discovered the democratic reality in both Spain and Merkel-led Europe, but the desire for independence in more than 2 million people won't be stopped just by putting away their leaders on a manifestly trumped-up charge.
Unfortunately the actions of the Judge will serve only to entrench people in their positions, which is not positve in any way because then there will be support for action that might have been rejected otherwise. There will be a greater support for disobedience and an even greater disrespect for the system and institutions.

I notice that there is a fair amount of support in Spain for the judge's decision, again this can only widen the breach between Spanish and Catalan societies. By abdicating responsibility to the judges the Government is very much to blame for much of what is going on.

Meanwhile there is now a two month countdown to find a government and president of the Generalitat.
To demonstrate the vindictiveness of Madrid the PP were studying if the investiture today should be declared illegal. There should have been a second vote over Turull held today but the leader of parliament Torrent decided that no vote would be held but allowed the parties to express their opinions on the situation. The four PP MPs walked out as they claimed it should have been called off.
There was no investiture vote, just politicians talking about what had happened and still the PP studied if they should take action. Both vindictive and willie-waving while showing they had no intention of accepting the result of the election without interference.

It's a crap situation right now, and I'm desperately trying not to sound like a Plastic Paddy but it's very difficult to see this as anything but Traditional Spanish, and a degradation of democracy.
 
I certainly can't read the Catalan and the only news I see on the subject is from the likes of the BBC who, let's face it, tend to have an agenda of their own. It's interesting to read your input to the thread as it gives a different view. Keep it up :pc:
 
Llarena seems to think, as does Madrid that putting the leaders of the Process in prison for up to 30 years will stop the call for Independence.
However, even powerful movement voided leaders turns into disorganized crowd.
It won't, it can't, it can only make people more determined. It started as a street movement, a coming together of people who suddenly found out that a lot of others wanted the same and that maybe in a Democratic Spain and Europe it could happen. Well we have discovered the democratic reality in both Spain and Merkel-led Europe, but the desire for independence in more than 2 million people won't be stopped just by putting away their leaders on a manifestly trumped-up charge.
Catalan independence movement is voided any support from 'Democratic Europe' and any support from elsewhere. Brussels is rather on the side of Madrid for political reasons.
Unfortunately the actions of the Judge will serve only to entrench people in their positions, which is not positive in any way because then there will be support for action that might have been rejected otherwise. There will be a greater support for disobedience and an even greater disrespect for the system and institutions.
Face bitter truth - independence without armed resistance is hardly possible. And armed resistance would be immediately used by Madrid to describe separatists leaders as 'terrorists'.
I notice that there is a fair amount of support in Spain for the judge's decision, again this can only widen the breach between Spanish and Catalan societies. By abdicating responsibility to the judges the Government is very much to blame for much of what is going on.
As I understand the separatist leaders also try to widen the breach, do they?
Have they clear vision of future independent Catalan state? I mean rights of Spanish citizens. Would they have right for Catalan citizenship? For education in Spanish? Would Spanish language be state language in independent Catalonia? Do separatist leaders seek support from ethnically not Catalans?

I suppose that Madrid will try to change ethnical balance in Catalonia to resolve the problem. What do you think?
 
Brussels, March 24 (EFE) .- The Brussels Public Prosecutor's Office today confirmed the reception of the euroorden from the Spanish Supreme Court judge Pablo Llarena against the former president of the Catalan Generalitat Carles Puigdemont and the three Catalan ex-councilors who fled like him in Belgium.

The Prosecutor's Office told Efe that it could not confirm whether Puigdemont was in Belgium, but that he planned to send a statement with more details about it in the coming hours.

Puigdemont's Belgian lawyer, Paul Bekaert, said Saturday that he has not seen the new arrest warrant issued by the Supreme Court judge against his client, he told Belgian news agency.

And so it goes
 
Barcelona, March 25 (EFE) .- The German police has retained the former Catalan president Carles Puigdemont when he crossed the border by car from Denmark to Belgium, the country where he has his residence, in application of the euroorden taken out by the Spanish justice .

As reported to Efe Jaume Alonso-Cuevillas, lawyer of Puigdemont, the former president of the Generalitat remains retained by the police of Germany in a police station, waiting for the appropriate checks are carried out in relation to the arrest warrant pending .
 
From what I understand that sums it up nicely. As ever thanks for your explanations. Trying to follow all this without much useable Catalan is not really an option. Certainly the BBC have lost interest ( again) .

That's because they have other more important things to cover that the British people are actually interested in.
 
Carles Puigdemont detained by German Police soon after he crossed the border from Denmark to Germany heading for Belgium, and has been sent to the prison in Neumuenster.
The Spanish intelligence had a team on him and advised the Boxheads that he was on their territory having already gone through Sweden and Denmark.

The Germans must now decide within 48 hours to allow him to leave prison with conditions or keep him there. Initially he said that he would present himself to the Finnish Authorities and didn't so that gives them more grounds to detain him against risk of flight.

German law allows for rebellion and is more likely to be sympathetic to the Spanish request for extradition than the Belgian, plus German opinion of events in Catalunya, as might be expected isn't that favourable. However for rebellion one needs violence and the fiction that Llarena has created might not sit so well over there as it needs proving.

Also an intriguing point is that Merkel needs the pact with the Greens to govern and they supported the Catalan right to decide. Provided the Greens follow up their support it may put the pact in jeopardy if Puigdemont is sent back. On the other hand they may decide that their voice in German government is more valuable than helping Puigdemont. Also Merkel might claim that she is leaving it all in the hands of the courts and justice while quietly ensuring the extradition. The latter point I suspect may well happen as Rajoy made a promise to be a good European in return for support over Catalunya. One hopes that the German separation of powers holds out for a fair decision.

It is beginning to provoke reactions here, and some younger hotheads are getting the spray cans out, and it may well not stop there.

The Spanish government obviously made hay out of this in a matter of fact but satisfied way, apart from Albiol of the PPC who just showed that David Beckham has a greater IQ. Rivera of Cs went further with a statement that the 'Fugitive coup d'etater' has come to the end of his flight. Part of the willie-waving show that Cs are engaged in with the PP.

Whether he comes back or not this brings Catalunya back into the European eye.

Also Scottish Police say that they have received the Euro Order to detain Clara Ponsati who resigned as a MP and returned to teaching in St Andrews. (This may take a bit longer as the Jocks have to read it)

I see latest news of demos in Barcelona, but the cry has gone out to make it peaceful.
 
IF you can be bothered to plough through this Collectiu Praga (Prague) report that they are submitting to the Court of Human rights. It is a collective of hundreds of lawyers who are highlighting the illegalities inherent in what the government and courts are doing.

They are also putting forward a motion that Llarena is guilty of obstruction of justice.

The website has Catalan, Spanish and English so no problems with translations.

Col·lectiu Praga |

http://collectiupraga.cat/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Denúncia-CEDH.-26-2-2018-Anglès.pdf
 
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